r/memes 5h ago

When the author becomes the final boss

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12.3k Upvotes

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2.6k

u/Odd-Soup-5419 5h ago

At this rate, all the spinoffs such as House of Dragon or A Knight of the Seven kingdoms, or working alongside Miyazaki to develop Elden Ring, are mere excuses by George so he doesn't have to work on the last 2 books.

He straight up doesn't care anymore.

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u/Dull-Yak3671 5h ago edited 4h ago

He's got the bag too early. He's like that Patreon game Developer that made it big in year 1, develops the first halve of the game in 1/2 years and then proceeds to milk the remaining 50% for years because they no longer have the financial incentive or the moral compass to deliver on what they promised (if it doesn't get stuck on development hell lol). I was endorsing a guy like that on Patreon (Redamz), his game got really big real quick and he got a ton of Patrons paying 10 bucks per month. After a couple years of development, Redamz had some problems with Patreon's TOS and removed the game from that platform entirely, and, unsurprisingly, the game has been untouched since then. Also, the guy straight up decided to shelve the project unilaterally and lied about making other games related to that game. It's been like 4 years since he announced those other games and there's nothing to show for it (outside of roadmap that looks like it was made on Paint by a 12 year old), so the original game won't ever be finished neither will the other games he promised. He actually had a Tier that was, IIRC, $20, that granted you access to some cool stuff that you'd only receive once the game was finished. Needless to say he never returned a cent of that, so you just wasted money for an hypothetical that you're never going to receive. If you go to his Discord and ask for updates or an explanation on the og game getting shelved, Redamz himself and his friends will just cuss you out. This guy is essentially YandereDev's pupil, I don't know which one is scummier. If you want to know a person's real nature give them a lot of money, see how they act. 

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u/TehTJ13 5h ago

YandereDev is still making money on people waiting for the game somehow

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u/Dull-Yak3671 4h ago edited 4h ago

Yes, exactly, Redamz is YandereDev's cousin. The only difference is that as soon as he ceased his connection to Patreon he stopped developing the game. Didn't look for another service to fund his game or try to deliver on his promises. Just straight-up dropped the game and stated it was finished lol, but at that point the guy had already made hundreds of thousands. I figure he was satisfied with the money he had received thus far and called it a day not caring for the fact he had scammed thousands of Patrons who had supported him for years. Hell, I'm sure he was relieved that Patreon gave him trouble, it gave him an excuse to bail (I remember the Patreon thing being completely blown out of proportion over something very minor that could've easily been adjusted. It literally saved his scummy ass from having to finish the game). 

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u/The_1ndiegamer 4h ago

Or star citizien. I'm sure it'll have full release at some point, but it's getting ridicolous now.

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u/Nagoy777 3h ago

At least star citizen has a mostly playable product.

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u/Funny-Cell8769 2h ago

"has a mostly playable product" is such a cope.

Imagine handing someone more than a billion dollars and being fine with "mostly playable"

You guys must be happy if GTA6 didn't allow you to do shit but drive around in different cars to very specific locations.

Hand me a hundred million dollars and I can deliver a restaurant with mostly edible food.

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u/The_1ndiegamer 1h ago

I was going to make this joke initially, i'll make it now. It's kinda the elon musk of gaming.

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u/The_1ndiegamer 3h ago

After many years yeah, i was an original backer who lost interest after like year 5 and more and more promises but nothing to show for it.

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u/Jpup199 1h ago

YandereDev is a nobody next to the people behind star citizen

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u/LocksmithOk9968 2h ago

I don’t see the resemblance?

When I purchase a book I explicitly trade money for that book. Not the book before, not the book after, specifically that book.

When I donate money via Patreon or similar services I do it to support a creator not as part of an exchange for a product or service.

In both instances there’s perhaps a hope for more attached to it but that’s roughly where the resemblance ends.

They said, I don’t think it’s a matter of GRRM being too busy counting his money.

He clearly still likes being involved with the universe seeing as he’s working on all these ASOIF projects.

I just think the show’s ending put a domper on it for him, especially since his writing method is very much driven by his own curiosity in wanting to know how things develop and having the story come together organically.

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u/AlectoPictus 4h ago

Why are people still treating crowdfunding sites like shops?

When you give money to someone on patreon or kickstarter or gofundme or whatever the fuck, you are making a no strings attached donation with no guarantee of anything in return. The owner has zero obligation to fulfil any of their future rewards.

Like that's literally the point of the platforms, to support creators who don't have any finished products to sell. It's not a pre-order. If you're expecting something guaranteed in return you need to wait until the product is finished and just buy it.

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u/Dull-Yak3671 4h ago edited 3h ago

Except this guy had a Tier that was literally a Pre-order. It's the one I mentioned and it was clearly more expensive than the other ones. You were guaranteed a digital copy of the finished game and your name in the credits. 

Also, it's a question of morals. If you're developing a game and asking for financial support, it's entirely reasonable to expect a finished product at some point. A lot of developers being scumbags and leaving the project as soon as they've earned enough doesn't make it right. Yeah sure, it can happen, but doesn't mean it should. We're just enabling bad practices with that kind of mentality. I'm not buying it. 

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u/AlectoPictus 3h ago

Except this guy had a Tier that was literally a Pre-order

He can write whatever he wants on the page, doesn't change that that's not how patreon works. It's not a shop. Nothing is guaranteed.

If you're developing a game and asking for financial support, it's entirely reasonable to expect a finished product at some point.

It's also entirely reasonable to expect no product too. You're investing, not buying. That means assuming the risk that there will be no product ever.

Most business ventures fail. You need to get out of the mentality that these sites are for customers. You're not buying anything, you're donating to these people.

If you don't like that risk then don't give them money. And I say that sincerely.

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u/StrongSmartSexyTall 2h ago

I mean sure - people need to be aware about the risks. That doesn‘t mean you can‘t complaint if a dev fails to deliver though. Especially if it‘s obvious they just lost the Motivation b/c they already collected a lot of money.

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u/TheSpartanMaty Can i haz cheeseburger 3h ago

While it's true supporting someone on patreon grants no guarantees for a product to be delivered, if the tier advertises something will be delivered and then it ends up not, that might be considered breach of contract. But that would be a civil case, so you'd have to sue the person and prove it to actually be the case. IANAL so I don't know if such a case has any real chance of succeeding, or if it would be worth the cost.

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u/Typical_Research_877 3h ago

"Pre-Order! You'll receive 1 copy of the game"

this guy ^

"iT's NoT a ShOp YoU'rE nOt BuYiNg AnYtHiNg"

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u/Ok_Caregiver1004 3h ago

Is that question rhetorical? If not its for the same reason people pre order from actual triple A game studios who often also turn out unfinished buggy slop that needs years worth of patches to make viable. Or hell actuall investors in venture capitalist companies. Because they like whats promised and if it turns out to be crap thats still a risk people take. For most of these, losing 2, 5 or 10 bucks a month sucks if you get nothing out of it after years but no one is losing shirts over it.

If many people didn't think gambling without guarantees is worth it then casinos or betting shops would never have worked as a business

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u/oompaloompa465 2h ago

Same with BlueCat. Wild excuse after wild excuse

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u/No-Bit-2913 4h ago

Honestly id be happy if he wrote like one page, doesnt even need to be like a novel style, just say how it ends, feel free to skip the rest of the book, I just want the end.

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u/Zardif Big ol' bacon buttsack 4h ago

The ending of GoT is broadly the ending of his books. He told the producers early on how it was supposed to end. They didn't do a good job because they aren't good writers and wanted to go do star wars, which they then lost because they fucked up got so badly. Now that everyone hates the ending grrm is even more paralyzed because he can't write a better ending.

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u/Academic_Help5033 3h ago

His writing style also fucks him up. He writes organically so he just let's the characters lead him. This has messed with his broad plot ideas from the jump. 

There was supposed to a time jump after ASOS to let the characters and dragons grow. Instead we got 2 extra books he didn't plan for to bridge that gap. 

I believe him when he says he's written a lot. It just that he struggles to edit and has to rewrite so much because he'll organically go off on another new plot line unexpectedly that affects everything else. 

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u/RedThragtusk 1h ago

Yup the series was doomed from the moment we didn't have that timeskip IMO. He said the reason he didn't go through with it is because he found himself writing too many flashbacks. His "gardener" writing style essentially means that each of his characters is equivalent to a protagonist in any other series, their own perspectives need to be fully developed which means creating lore and a host of other characters in their location and story. Each additional characters adds exponentially more complication to the overall world.

GRRM's approach is what makes his world so amazing to read, because it feels real and grounded, but it's also his inevitable downfall as the project becomes far too large for one man to handle as each new character, each chapter, each location adds exponentially more complication than the last.

GRRM abandoned the 5-year timeskip because he didn't want to summarize all these massive geopolitical events like Daenerys struggling to rule in Slaver's Bay, Jon becoming Lord Commander, Cersei's misrule, Stannis establishing himself in north, origins of Aegon/Young Griff. But by deciding to include these, he created an enormous amount of new story that itself generated even more unresolved threads, thus his solution was worse than his initial problem.

Thus, I think the lack of timeskip sunk it. Now the characters are still too young, we're bogged down in a myriad of side quests and rabbit holes, not-so-important characters that aren't part of the core narrative, and the original core cast and nowhere near where they need to be.

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u/The_Lost_Jedi 3h ago

Honestly, there are things about the ending that I don't like even if you made them make perfect narrative sense, because it's just a bad fucking idea to begin with, namely who he had the idea of having become King.

Like, sure, the show's explanation was flaming dogshit, but even aside from that, the notion of putting a semi-omniscient alien-esque entity in charge of everything is a TON of problems just waiting to happen, at least as I see it (and that's just to begin with).

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u/Nition 2h ago

In the books I always kinda hoped it'd be Gendry. He seemed like a better guy than the nobility and had a pretty good claim to the throne as well.

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u/Sudden-Money7836 1h ago

Is that so, bastard?!

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u/ThatUsernameWasTaken 2h ago

Plus every actual wizard knows you go for the position of advisor-who-puppets-the-king-from-the-shadows. It gives you more time to slip out the back when the regicide shows up at the door.

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u/14Pleiadians 2h ago

That's almost definitely what GRRM meant in the notes given

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u/LurkerInSpace 1h ago

There is an argument that Bloodraven is the puppet-master behind Bran.

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u/Do_Not_Go_In_There 2h ago

That, and having a king who cannot have children while maintaining a hereditary monarchy is a pretty bad idea. They're kicking the can down to the next generation to solve that one.

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u/baelrog 2h ago

I kind of feel like as a writer, he should know it’s not what the ending is, but how the journey to get there.

He could have totally have the same ending but deliver it in a much better way.

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u/genma9999 2h ago

No-uh. That one writter even said that he asked GRRM if Jon Snow was Lyanna's son and he just "gave him a look" confirming it. There's also characters playing for the throne that never even appeared in the show (Danny's "real" baby brother is the one I can name right now, even Stannis is still alive). He gave them bread crumbs for them to finish the, at that point, awful show.

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u/HelpMeOverHere 3h ago

But a short and rushed ending is what literally almost everybody hated about the last season.

Just start off with Dany’s SLOW decent in to madness.

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u/RoseWhiteRedBlack 3h ago

This is factualy not true. 99% of the biggest theory crafters of GoT don' t want Dany to turn mad. Lindsey Ellis made a 2 part video where he called the showrunners misogynistic because they showed a woman in power turning mad, and that is sexist for her ( despite how obvious it is in the books and tv series that she will turn mad).

People hated the ending for what it was and how they got there, not just for the second part. The rest is cope.

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u/Frydendahl 3h ago

The pressure for making a good ending is too much for him. He's got performance anxiety where his works have become so scrutinized that he's paralyzed into inaction because he's worried about producing a disappointing result.

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u/Express_Living2264 2h ago

there's also the fact that his current work has a far quicker turn around time. You invest a few weeks/ actively work with people who look up to you instead of vanishing for years in a room to write a book. The effort to reward ratio is far more addicting as you are constantly rewarded in small doses. (be it money or attention)

Besides there's a good chance the series shows exactly the ending he had envisioned, albeit somewhat accelerated/hasted. In which case he's probably not to keen to finish the books :D

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u/North_Refrigerator21 3h ago

I’m sure he cares, if he finished the books with an amazing ending to the stories it would be a huge legacy. Would be up there with the biggest works of fantasy and most popular literature ever.

I think the problem is that he is not able to finish it in any satisfactory way. What was shown in TV is probably very close to the storyline he had planned, and he saw the disappointment from that. He knows finishing the story can only make him fail. Now so much time has passed and he is so old that it’s unrealistic for him to do anything about it anyway.

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u/asdkevinasd 2h ago

That's my theory as well. I cannot believe the showrunner suddenly pushed for the story to end in a way without his blessing or involvements. His story plan probably floated towards how the TV show would end and he was horrified by the feedback.

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u/Kotanan 4h ago

It’s more that he’s a hack. Creating intriguing questions is easy, writing satisfying answers is hard.

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u/Boojum2k 2h ago

The mystery box school of writing needs to be taken out back and shot.

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u/Arios84 2h ago

I doubt that "he doesn't care anymore" is the issue, I think he cares but has written himself into a corner and has no idea how to fix it.

The book ending beeing most likely what we saw in GoT season 8 and the reception of season 8 doesn't help much either I would think.

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u/TheKingsdread 2h ago

I've recently had this conversation with a work colleague and compared GRRM to one of those fanfiction authors who start writing this epic 300 chapter story and somewhere half-way through they lose interest and stop posting. Maybe they post another chapter or two but eventually they just stop.

GRRM doesn't care to finish his story at this point, and I honestly don't think he is going to. If the story gets finished at all its gonna be finished by someone else his publisher hires to do so from his (if any) notes and written material post-humously.

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u/faizetto 5h ago

Still waiting for The Doors of Stone, the 3rd book of a prologue to the supposed main story of The Kingkiller Chronicles that we probably never get the chance to read, ever.

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u/Pseudotm 4h ago

It's never coming out. He didn't even release the charity chapters he promised. Sad, it was a fantastic series.

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u/Hot-Problem2436 2h ago

Was it though? I remember reading them when they came out and loving them. It's been so long that I decided to go and reread them and ugh, Kvothe is just a fuckin turd. 

It's like being cool in high school and then looking at your yearbook 10 years later and realizing how cringe you were.

I really don't know if I'll bother reading the 3rd if it ever comes out tbh.

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u/9966 2h ago

The whole thing is that he's an unreliable narrator.

Who has perfect recall of their entire life story ready for a stranger where you tell stories of how you became a sex god lute ninja?

Maybe he's just an Innleeper who picked up entertaining stories over the years.

There, now we are out of the stupid corner he wrote us into.maybe he desperately needs a lodger at the Inn.

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u/Fearful-Cow 1h ago

Maybe he's just an Innleeper who picked up entertaining stories over the years.

been ages but the fact he had the special sword and killed a demon thing prob indicates he is not JUST an innkeeper. And the box we will never get an answer too.

I really enjoyed the first two books but has been about a decade since i read them

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u/JonathanBadwolf 2h ago

I really like the first book, second one jumped the shark into teen power fantasy at the cost of the main story and its meta narrative.

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u/stormdressed 2h ago

The writing is beautiful but there's no substance beneath it. I didn't even notice until I reached the end that nothing happened the whole time

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u/Nero_2001 3h ago

Rothfuss said he was 90% done but that was almost 10 years ago so I doupt it.

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u/JonathanBadwolf 2h ago

I mean Martin did say that too. Lying is free, you know

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u/WandererMisha 4h ago

I saw a very good point made by Mormon Branderson. Name of the Wind was Rothfuss's debut, it was his first book. Dude painted Guernica on his first attempt.

Then he kinda followed up but it was difficult.

Closing it off is almost impossible because Rothfuss skipped over the normal evolution of a writer. He never learned how to handle this.

It's like being a super fast runner and playing soccer. Sure, it will make you a beast for a few matches but you will get to a point where you need to learn more than just speed. Problem is that Rothfuss jumped over the baby leagues and straight into the Championship and now he's stuck.

Martin on the other hand has been writing for decades before AGoT. He should have known better.

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u/Ergo7z 51m ago

As someone whose trajectory is kinda similar, just not as much in the public eye, this is definitely plausible. When the growth of your talent outpaces the growth of your experience and infrastructure and then suddenly your talent means that people have expectations of you rhat you’re not sure you can meet, it can be paralysing. Especially cause sometimes your best work gets made in flashes of inspiration, when you’re in flow state whatever, but it gets so much harder to reach there when you know people are watching and sometimes it just doesn’t come and you lose confidence etc.

It took me a lot of reflection, growth and practice to get there and I have like 1% of the eyes on me that rothfuss has.

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u/Mindless0ne 5h ago

"...lose interest" -there I fixed it for you.

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u/SocratesPuppet 5h ago

Definitely something more than writers bloc

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u/TheSerpentLord can't meme 4h ago

I wish I would have been as naive as the people who think GRRM just has a writer's block and he'll get back into writing at any moment.

My life would had been so much happier if I was that delusional.

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u/Other-Oil-9117 3h ago

Winds of Winter has to be the longest running example of the Duncan Principle.

https://giphy.com/gifs/dn9QA6JiwOJws

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u/Green_Phone_3495 4h ago

I think he is just unable to finish a story in general. It's a writer's skill issue, not a writer's block. He knows how to expand a world. He doesn't know how to get to the shore.

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u/Pelican25 4h ago

It's basic DND; the DM dangles a million story threads for the players in the beginning and then as the campaign goes on he narrows it down to the ones the players are interested in. Issue with GRRM is that he doesn't have any players to help push the story forward, it's just him, so he keeps adding more threads and red herrings, and now it's just a mess of knots.

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u/The_Lost_Jedi 3h ago

My personal theory is that there's a conflict between his stated writing method/style, and his intended outcome. That is, he's stated that he's a "gardener", meaning that he lets things develop semi-organically, and then prunes and steers the story/stories as need be.

I think the problem is though that his story has gotten far enough away from where he'd intended it to go (his stated ending) that he can't figure out how to get it back on track and still make sense, essentially.

If that's the case what he ought to do is jettison his intended ending, or amend it, because if he can't make it make sense in the narrative, then maybe it just doesn't make sense at all. Y'know?

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u/Dobako 1h ago

To add to your comment, I think part of it is that his ending is pretty close to the Game of Thrones ending, and he doesn't know how to fix it, and he saw how everyone hated it, so he's just running out the clock at this point

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u/TheBigFreezer 4h ago

The greatest measure of a writer is how they write endings, anyone can expand the story, very few can wrap it up

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u/Ordinary_dude_NOT 5h ago

Procrastination is the name of the game

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u/KingofCats1701 4h ago

I remember a interview or something between him and stephen king where martin asks him how he is able to just right constantly and king just goes "I just do it, its my job" Or something along those lines.

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u/Renderdarg 3h ago

Tbf King can’t write endings worth a damn a lot of the time also.

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u/The_Lost_Jedi 3h ago

At least he finally finished Dark Tower. May not have been a great ending, and it took forever, but at least he did it. :)

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u/MeiSuesse 3h ago

Maybe not, but does he finish them? Yes.

But I always wondered what "can't write endings" thing is about. What's the issue? Do people think the ending is too open for interpretation? Rushed? Not what they wanted it to be?

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u/ChroniclesOfSarnia 3h ago

Loved Duma Key.

The ending, not so much

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u/Valtremors 4h ago

"Got so rich they no longer have to care about their audience"

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u/coatimundos 4h ago edited 1h ago

It’s a bit more complex than that. He wrote himself into a corner. GRRM calls his writing style “gardening”, where he doesn’t plan the entire story ahead meticulously but rather lets the characters do what makes sense for them in the situations he writes, even if he didn’t plan on that outcome.

The upside of that is a much more realistic and convincing story as characters don’t do convoluted shit to get where the author wants them to be. The downside is that in book 4 GRRM introduced so many new characters that his “garden” is now too big and out of control and he can’t get it back to his original outline of the story.

The most famous example is that in book 2 he gave Daenerys a plot of starting to oppose slavery and oppression, but that plot spiraled out and became her defining characteristic, that is completely unrelated to the other ongoing plots in the books, and now by book 5 he can’t get Daenerys out of the east without having her betray all her principals and ideals.

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u/jackofslayers 4h ago

This is my fear for One Piece but I am just enjoying the ride on that one

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u/Green_Phone_3495 4h ago

Pretty sure Oda has the ending planned and in sight already. We are in the final saga and the pace is faster than it used to be. I think he was lost around dressrosa -> punk hazard -> wano but figured it out during egghead.

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u/zorniy2 4h ago

The Thanos Solution: kill off half of the cast. 

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u/open_formation 3h ago

Sword logic.

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u/coatimundos 1h ago

That’s pretty much how the show solved it. They killed off all the characters that were introduced later to focus on the initial characters

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u/Fisher9001 3h ago

Sorry, if anything "gardening" style should make it easier to continue the story. Even if the original outline is hard to reach, surely there must another satisfying resolution.

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u/Mental-Fisherman-118 3h ago

Sorry, if anything "gardening" style should make it easier to continue the story

Not really, it has resulted in him having disparate story threads which need to be satisfyingly resolved in a coherent way - without having fully planned out how they will come together.

He has a broad outline of where he wants to end up, but he hasn't meticulously planned everything out - meaning every time he writes a chapter he needs to check it doesn't contradict every other chapter. If he had a fleshed out central plan this wouldn't be necessary.

The benefit of the gardening approach came at the start of the writing process, not the end.

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u/The_Lost_Jedi 3h ago

I think that's the problem, that he's insisting on trying to make his original goal/ending make sense. If that's the case, he really needs to just come to terms with the fact that the ending needs to change, and let the story/narrative dictate it.

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u/tired_snail 4h ago

This. When I read the books, it was "next book expected to release within the next year or two"... it's still nowhere to be seen and I've read enough other books since to barely remember most of ASOIAF. I already have too many books I'm planning to read to have time to reread all the books when this one eventually does come out, not to mention there's allegedly a seventh planned too, will we have to wait another 15+ for that one? I just can't be bothered anymore.

The fantasy community has conflicting opinions about Sanderson but damn, at least the man WRITES.

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u/Cerulean-Knight 4h ago

I think fans are just dying

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u/LemonFizz56 5h ago

More like - the show ended the way he was planning and everybody hated it so now he's pouting

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u/Dazzling-Grocery-- 5h ago

Read the books it literally can't end the way the show did becuase of how much stuff there is that the show didn't include.

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u/Green_Phone_3495 4h ago

Guess what Mary, he doesn't know how to include it either 😭

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u/Easy-Independent1621 4h ago

It can end the same for some characters.

Mad Queen Dany is probably not a show original thing and most fans I know hated their "qween" went vengeance fueled tyrant, so he knows he's gonna get backlash for it.

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u/TheKingsdread 2h ago

Tbf thats easily the thing I have the least problem with in that ending. Its a bit too sudden, but in the books (and in the show too) seeds for Mad Queen Dany have been planted so as long as it developes organically it could easily be her story's end.

The biggest issues is how the show's ending either skips or wipes away tons of character developement to get to where it wants to go, and then the largely non-sensicle decisions such as Bran becoming King.

For most decisions the final 2 seasons make I could come up with a reasoning why they happen (though I disagree with some of them), but basically all of them are rushed for no reason, or feel like just retreading old ground due to lack of creativity.

And then of course there is all the stuff they left out of the show that is likely could play a role in the books. Like I could see Euron stealing one of Dany's dragons instead of killing it for example. Not that the books are ever coming out.

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u/Megalordow 5h ago

No, it si pretty sure that books will end different, because they already differs from the show (or rather, show differed from them) in very important ways. Like, there are whole big factions which were not represented in the show. There is whole army led by the boy who declares himself Aegon (brother of Daenerys). Euron Greyjoy in show was ribauld simpleton pirate allied with Cersei, in books he is cunning sorcerer who has some much bigger ambitions and is collecting fragments of the occult knowledge from across the world. In general, in later books magical elements become more and more important - something which showrunners disliked and they wanted to keep show as mundane as possible. It is assured that in the books endboss is supposed to be magical (be it White Walkers or Euron or both), not Cersei.

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u/MarcusXL 4h ago

I suspect that big parts of the show's ending were more or less what Martin had in mind. The terrible reception has made him gun-shy and ultra-critical of the work he has already done.

Combine that with the fact that he can do anything he wants, and he finds writing other stuff a lot more enjoyable, and the delay makes a lot of sense. He's probably written and thrown out a lot of material, and he's supremely discouraged and bitter (at both himself and his fans). The motivation to finish the series is all negative, rather than writing for the joy of it, which makes the output worse, which feeds into the discouragement.

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u/spudsbottom 5h ago

"Writes himself into a corner and won't admit that he's fucked up and doesn't know how to continue"

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u/Fair-Bunch4827 4h ago

His quote that he's a gardener type of writer and not an architect comes to mind.

He planted too many and it overran his garden i guess.

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u/WandererMisha 4h ago

This is why even the most gardener-type writers plan something.

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u/Blaze_Vortex 3h ago

I mean, he did plan something. He planned lots of things. Then he killed off characters vital to each storyline he planted one by one and now there's a bunch of dead bushes and weeds in his garden.

Honestly, the premise of a story where anyone can die is great, but you need to build it into an overarching storyline that requires no single character to be completed, not a ton of small storylines tangled together.

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u/goatpunchtheater 3h ago

that's not the problem. He himself said it's a matter of geography. He sent so many characters away from westeros, that bringing them back in a way that makes sense got too unruly. The tv writers handwaved all that, and just shoved them all back. George isn't willing to compromise quality so here we are.

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u/sat5ui_no_hadou 2h ago

Pretty sure a build that never gets completed is a compromise in quality

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u/Fun-Minimum-3007 1h ago

Unfortunately the plot has much bigger problem than just getting characters back to westeros. That problem wouldn't take 15 years to resolve, it would just require a small time jump and maybe a little suspension of disbelief, a little filler for the characters already in their proper location. The real problem, as i see it, is that the story has about 5 novels worth of plot threads currently dangling and it needs to wrap up in 2. There's so many moving parts and he cant help himself fron constantly adding more instead of figuring out how to use the ones he already has on the table.

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u/I_saw_you_yesterday 1h ago

Also im pretty sure the GOT ending was also his ending but he wants to change it now because of how hated it is. The sad part is it could be a great ending if he took his time and didn’t rush it, like Dumb and Dumber

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u/ParrotofDoom 1h ago

I always thought that Dany going mad could have been more easily explained had her second dragon been killed at Kings Landing, and not by an aimbotting boat captain.

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u/I_saw_you_yesterday 1h ago

Also true. How did he even snipe down a dragon like that but Drogon flying straight to them has the plotarmor of Batman

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u/WandererMisha 57m ago

If the show didn't erase fAegon it'd be fine. Dany fights the dead, meanwhile fAegon and the GC take over King's Landing.

She returns after the battle with the dead and finds a newly crowned Targeryan king on the Iron Throne. Her claim is null. There is nothing she can do but go full Maegor on KL.

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u/WandererMisha 1h ago

George isn't willing to compromise quality

Considering the books have only been going down in quality and this AI-traced dogshit is in his illustrated edition, I have some doubts as to your statement.

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u/PalantirImperator 1h ago

Actually there are a ton of incredible plotlines available, but most of them would require expanding the series to minimum 10ish books with the Red Wedding essentially being the end of act 1 of the series- which is genuinely the only reasonable way to write it after the way he went with AFFC and ADWD. And he's dead set against that for god know's why- if it's due to him not wanting to draw out the series as he claims, he's an even bigger idiot than he appears, since we're rapidly approaching the point where the entire 14 book Wheel of Time publication timeline could fit in the gap between ADWD and TWOW.

The guy should just move the plot forward and try to figure out how to get out of the corner he's written himself into slowly over time, rather than trying to cram everything that's left in the series into 2 books.

Of course, all that assumes he's even trying to, which I personally gave up on the idea of ~10 years ago.

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u/Captain_Gropius 3h ago

Oh, he planned alright, but found himself blocked by the narrative: he wanted a time skip after the third book but found himself relying on flashbacks, so he had to redo that part.

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u/WandererMisha 59m ago

Shame nobody told gurm he can just decide not to write the flashbacks. Or he could write a collection of stories from during the 'skip' to cover what is needed while not going into too much detail.

Literally his choice.

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u/Cool_Professional 2h ago

A good garden is curated. If something begins to grow, allow it some space to develop and transplant it somewhere it can flower beautifully.

(In this analogy, this means write it out, get the idea down on paper, then decide if it fits, or if it needs to be developed as its own thing elsewhere)

Grrm allows gardens to be overrun with weeds.

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u/brendel000 4h ago

Usually this stories don’t end well. Those writer should stick to small individual stories in a big universe it’s very good too.

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u/Busy-Elderberry2137 2h ago

"I'm a gardener" mate gardeners meticulously plant the layout of their gardens

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u/Sad_Math5598 57m ago

The thing is, he has the perfect way to “prune” his garden. The apocalyptic threat from the others could cut some of the extraneous plot lines short, and then we’d get to see things play out that folks actually want to see

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u/The_Frostweaver 4h ago

I agree but I think he could continue anyways and not be so focused on fan expectations.

Forget about the show. Forget about finishing it nicely in a big finale over two or three books.

Just write from the heart and see where it takes you. Better to write more books and still not wrap things up nicely than to write no more books at all.

I bet plenty of writers/editors would be happy to help him with some plot points and character story arcs

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u/Other-Oil-9117 2h ago

Honestly yeah, I'd rather have a slightly underwhelming/frustrating ending than nothing at all.

I'm guessing GRRM is a perfectionist which would be hard to work with, but at this point I think most people would just be happy to see the end point. It's never going to be totally satisfactory anyway, but I feel like the longer the wait, the more bitter people will be about it.

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u/Invictu520 3h ago

Honestly my theory is that the series finale was very similar to what he had in mind (although probably less fleshed out). Then he saw the negative reactions to Season 7 and especially 8 and thinks he cannot salvage it because everything has been set up in that direction.

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u/Montizuma59 4h ago

It might be cope, but an ASOIAF content creator I watch theories that GRRM did write himself into a corner and the only way out of it is through jumping the shark.

The reason he's releasing so many prequel books is to justify the jump when we get to it in Winds of Winter.

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u/Das_KommenTier 3h ago

I think it’s not completely unsolvable. If he just sacrifices some plots, you can still have a great ending.

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u/PringlesDuckFace 2h ago

He should just pull a Tales of Genji and kill Genji and then just keep fucking going.

Couldn't figure out the Meereneese knot? Cut it in half with a big fucking sword. Maybe they all eat tainted lettuce and shit themselves to death, and all the remaining lords need to figure out the new balance of things.

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u/ratchetcoutoure 5h ago

Until it is proven wrong, I personally tend to believe the theory that we have seen the true ending, albeit rushed, and as we know it, it's shite, and that caused the said author to have forever writers block cos he genuinely didn't know where to take the story to, since the ending he intended was not well received in the form of visual media.

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u/WandererMisha 4h ago

Considering how confident he was in delivering Winds 7 years ago makes it all but confirmed.

I wager that is the reason he hasn't shit-talked Benioff and Weiss but actively went against Condal and Hess for House of the Dragon. Those two morons actually did adapt his story as he told them and he couldn't really blame them for his own shortcomings.

People say that Bran becoming king and all makes sense and, sure, I guess it does, but it's also just fucking stupid. It feels like a feel good story about a Super Special Chosen One rather than Ice & Fire.

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u/Mezmodian 4h ago

Well Brann does have the most experience sitting down, so giving him the throne makes sense /s.

But yeah the ending kinda became a trope with the disenfranchised main character winning in the end.

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u/Snowballingdownvote 2h ago

Bran becoming King shits on the entire plot. It is such a bad ending. Maybe the worst outcome imaginable. If you really think about it, it only gets worse.

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u/Edoryen 2h ago

It doesn't make sense though. The kingdom that just became independent gets 2 votes while everyone else gets 1. Then to the surprise of no one they choose one of their own to be the ruler of all the other kingdoms. Why did anyone agree to that? Especially the Iron Islands who fought in the war in order to become independent as well.

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u/Yeboiretry 4h ago

Only way Bran becoming king makes sense if its really bloodraven and its some elaborate plot of his

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u/PringlesDuckFace 2h ago

It makes sense for the character, but what is the message it delivers as the ending of the story? Some pseudo-omniscient jerk achieved the goal of ruling some shitty corner of the world by using magic? The whole long winter thing and white walkers was just kind of a side plot to Bloodraven getting the throne?

In the show it was played off as something hopeful and that his wisdom would let him lead, but if it's Bloodraven it feels more like the God Emperor of Dune type scenario to me, but without even the benefit of the Golden Path existing. Just the world being a shitty wheel that keeps turning.

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u/Seraphem666 3h ago

The true ending would be fine In the books. you clearly see danyearys or however you spell her name going crazier and crazier. With her having plenty of mad king moments that were never included in the show. It's why he going crazy is so left field in the show. They didn't include any of her crazy moments and painted her as a good leader

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u/Ashen-wolf 2h ago

I believe this. However I for one felt it was rushed, but if spanned properly and with the right convos and events it wouldnt have been that bad.

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u/CeeArthur 2h ago

Didn't he give them a rough outline of all the story beats? I'm sure they may have cut a few corners or merged a few storylines, but I feel like the events on the show that occur after they ran out of book material are probably more or less what was planned for the novels.

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u/madisoncarterl 5h ago

created the most brutal world in fiction then decided to be the most brutal author in real life

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u/Ok_Mention_9865 4h ago

Let's be honest he didnt spend 14 years writing the book. He hasn't touched that book in a decade at least.

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u/loulan 1h ago

He probably tried, realized he started too many plot lines to complete his story with only a few books, and gave up.

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u/Naxx95 5h ago

Tbf there was plot armour in GOT as well

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u/Fleedjitsu 5h ago

Wish the plot got some plot armour cos it died too towards the end...

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u/WandererMisha 4h ago

Most of the dead people come back lol (except for Ned and Robb ig)

Catelyn died and came back.

Jon died and will come back.

Berric died and came back.

Gregor died and came back.

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u/Dr_Toehold 2h ago

"most". Jon IS dead, 5 books in. Cat died and came back. Berric is dead 5 books in. Gregor probably died and came back.

Of those the only notable ressurection was Stoneheart (we don't know how Jon's will be).

We've had dead POVs like Ned, Oakheart, Quentyn. That also doesn't include main characters like Rob or antagonists like Jof, Tywin, Kevan, all of which much more relevant than Gregor.

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u/Morgn_Ladimore 2h ago edited 2h ago

You make it sound like they came back all jolly and normal.

  • Catelyn is an undead wight who can't talk because her throat was slit, her face is shredded exposing the rotted flesh underneath and in some places her skull, and she is solely obsessed with vengeance

  • Beric's wounds never heal, so he's missing an eye, his head is caved in, he has a massive gash in his chest and his throat is permanently contused from being hanged. He doesnt eat or sleep, and each ressurection causes him to lose his sense of self more and more.

  • Gregor is the result of a mad scientist expriment. He's alive in only the most basic sense of the word. He's basically a zombie in a suit of armor.

As for Jon, it remains to be seen how ressurection will affect him.

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u/KappaccinoNation 2h ago

Berric died and came back.

Tbf Beric did die again (and definitely for the last time) and stayed dead until the end of the books so far. It's the reason why we have Lady Stoneheart.

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u/FadeToBlackSun 5h ago

I haven't read the books but if it's like the show, then there's a ton of plot armour. It's mostly for the villains but it's everywhere.

Cersei arguably has some of the strongest in anything.

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u/JonathanBadwolf 3h ago

Oh you did a terrorism exploding the Vatican, killing the leaders of the religious extremists and the family funding your state and leading to the public suicide of the king? Congratulations Westeros now firmly belongs to you, the woman that was driven naked through the streets for incest and murder. Good job!

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u/agnostic-alien 4h ago

My call: He's already older than the average life expectancy for males in the United States. As soon as he's gone his publishers will turn into a very shitty version of Christopher Tolkien and slap together what material and notes they can find and glue it tight by AI or an underpaid ghostwriter to squeeze out the most profit out of the IP before it's gone forever

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u/loulan 1h ago

The problem is that he started too many plot lines. That's why he doesn't manage to finish the series, he can't do that in a book or a few books.

The AI or the ghost writer will have to write 20 more books to finish the story, à la Wheel of Time.

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u/MrSillmarillion 5h ago

Guys, give it up. He's not going to finish it and when he does, he's 15 years too late.

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u/LordOffal 5h ago

Great author terrible writer.

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u/SocratesPuppet 5h ago

Elaborate pls

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u/Zarathoostrian 5h ago

Authoring being the creation of ideas, writing being the process of putting those ideas to paper.

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u/Grabatreetron 5h ago edited 5h ago

Victim of his own success. He’s a great author when he had other people keeping him in check.

When he got super successful you could tell: Books got bloated and self-indulgent. Writing pretentious and more ham fisted. Nobody in the room telling him, “You need to cut this whole chapters of characters just standing around talking politics.”

This sort of thing happens with a lot of fantasy authors. 

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u/Chat322 5h ago

Star Wars prequels

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u/Substantial-Tone-576 5h ago

I think he needed the money and that made him write. Now that’s not the case.

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u/Project119 5h ago

He liked writing and had brilliant ideas. However I think he prefers sci-fi over fantasy. Between age, difficulty, money, and just not his preferred genre he’s just not in a hurry. He’s probably squirreled away enough for a post mortem conclusion to the series that another author can come in a cobble into a book on the same level.

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u/Hot-Problem2436 2h ago

I'd argue it's the other way around. 

A great author architects and plans the plot and creates deep characters with back stories before introducing them.

A great writer can take ideas and write them down in entrancing prose that keeps the reader engaged and wanting more.

GRR could write his ideas but he planned nothing. Might as well have been one of those "write a chapter a day" challenges that don't give you a chance to plan and are instead a way to practice writing.

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u/echoIalia 5h ago

Anyone can die…including the goddamn author

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u/Aggressive-Wear-8935 3h ago

He just wrote himself into a corner and saw how the audience reacts to his cliff notes

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u/Lysek8 4h ago

My conspiracy theory is that the ending is pretty much what we saw in the shows and he just got demotivated when people hated it

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u/Gas_Station_Cheese 3h ago

Bran may be the intended person to sit on the Iron Throne at the end, and that isn't something I'm excited about, but that isn't the problem. It's how the show got there. It was just "Dick joke, shitty battle, jump to the wall, shitty battle, ooh a dragon, mah queen, jump to King's Landing, dick joke, crash out, wet fart, Bran the Broken ... and scene."

Bran could still end up on the Throne in the books and it could still be great as long as the actual story is great.

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u/Lysek8 3h ago

I agree!

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u/Noe_b0dy 4h ago

I'm convinced that he gave the show writers his rough outlines for how he planned to end the books and then the show crashed and burned and now he doesn't want to finish for fear that his final books will end up hated like the final seasons.

His new plan is simply to die tragically before he can finish that way everyone will remember him as that great author of that amazing series that never finished instead of that guy who took 20 years to do a Stephen King ending.

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u/dmepic 5h ago

I think he has them done. I think he’s just waiting to die before he has them published. Either way I went from being a fan reading them as I grew up, to now being in my late 30s and just literally not giving a fuck about them anymore. I started reading the books when I was 15. I was so excited for a dance of dragons to come out that I took the week off from work and read the whole thing. I’m almost 40 now george, what the fuck.

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u/Substantial-Tone-576 5h ago

Has it been 14 years? Damn. And they still haven’t put out the second Fire and Blood. He isn’t even the author on that.

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u/Tub_Pumpkin 4h ago

We actually just passed the 15-year mark, not 14.

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u/TheNonsenseBook 3h ago

Amazing.

A Game of Thrones (8/1996)
A Clash of Kings (11/1998)
A Storm of Swords (8/2000)
A Feast for Crows (10/2005)
A Dance with Dragons (7/2011)

Looks like it was about 60 months (started summer 1991) from when he started the first book and it got published. Publishing time between books in months is 27, 21, 62, 69, and then it’s been 180 months since then.

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u/AverageMagePlayer 2h ago

He's going the fibonacci route

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u/Dr_Toehold 2h ago edited 1h ago

Nope. We're now on our way to the 16th year, A dance with dragons came out closer to Game of thrones than to today.

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u/IsorineFleuraine 5h ago

Do you believe he could've saved the last seasons of GoT if he'd finished it?

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u/TwiceBrokenWatch 3h ago

No. Mainly because I fully believe that the ending we got is the intended ending and the reason GRRM isn’t going to ever finish the books is because he got demotivated when he realised that people hated the ending.

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u/[deleted] 5h ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Head-Settings 5h ago

He wrote Ned, Robb, and the Red Wedding… but he can’t write 2 more books?

The plot twist is he was the real villain all along.

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u/Novus_Peregrine 3h ago

Anyone who actually thinks he's going to finish the series at this point likely needs professional help. They are having delusions.

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u/BWEKFAAST 2h ago

People here never had to finish a DnD Campaign as a DM and it shows. Do you know how much expectations are loaded onto those 2 Books? Its like with Half life 3

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u/PringlesDuckFace 2h ago

I never get past level 5

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u/HoliAss5111 4h ago

He said multiple times that there's too much pressure from the public and I the age of Tik Tok people don't have the pacience to properly read his book without jumping to conclusions every 5 words.

I think the books are written, or at least one is, and will be published postmortem just so he doesn't have to deal with the social media reaction.

Until then he will work on the HBO series because movies are too short for what he has to say about that world.

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u/Palagrin 4h ago

i don't even care about the wait, it s his book and if he wants he can write for another 100 uears or never write another word

It s the "it s nearly there it will totally be out next year/2 years/6 months from now" we ve been getting that update for a decade now and at this point it feels like a way to keep people buying books/merch.

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u/thisboyknows 33m ago

He will die and Sanderson will finish it.

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u/Interesting_Buy6796 4h ago

Bro got pissed about his own fans, mostly after the show took off. And I can kinda understand him, some tend to be really… difficult.

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u/FoulestGlint19 5h ago

Check the release date on his past entries. This is nothing new but it is taking longer

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u/FrikJonda 4h ago

He will not finish the book since the ending is the same as the hbo ending. Change my mind.

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u/BarderBetterFaster 4h ago

14 years

This meme is already a year behind

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u/Independent_Judge647 3h ago

I'm convinced he's done with the series but is milking whatever contracts out until he passes away. 

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u/Solid-Register-6675 2h ago

Doors of stone. Probably not going to happen either

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u/Vivenemous 18m ago

He's waiting for everyone to forget about the ending of the show before he takes another crack at it.

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u/InCatsWeTrustAmem 5h ago

Makes me think about that theory that he found the manuscripts and published them under his name, but he has run out of them so hes been stalling for years cause he cant write what he didnt make.

(I am not saying its true, its just why is it taking sooooo long)

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u/SocratesPuppet 5h ago

Give us something George

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u/wraith-mayhem 5h ago

He does unfortunarly give a lot of stuff, but just not the next book

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u/Phigwyn 5h ago

He constantly works on OTHER stuff that’s not ASOIAF-related. He’s actually very prolific, just not when it comes to this particular series. Maddening.

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u/OktopieGaming 5h ago

He lost interest and doesn’t want to write it anymore.

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u/Turbulent_Voice63 5h ago

Honestly, considering how GoT continued and ended his books, and your average GoT fan, it would suck the motivation out of anyone.

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u/Ironwolf44 5h ago

Couldn't he make like a publisher cut and leave us with his author's version.?

Like a director's cut of a film?

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u/unhingedokkaner 4h ago

Do game of thrones fans not know they've been literally clickbaited and lied to and stolen from? Like...its over. He aint writing it. 

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u/assoonass 4h ago

I think he doesn't want to finish it since HBO butchered it

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u/Birb_Birbington 4h ago

He’s already written them, and they’re so dogshit that (after seeing the reactions to Bran becoming king) he doesn’t want to live to see the backlash. We will have them released post mortem as supposedly “rough, yet unfinished versions”.

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u/Durzo_Blintt 4h ago

He's going to die leaving it unfinished and even Brandon Sanderson is going to turn down the job of finishing it off because nobody has a good ending for it.

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u/Guy-1nc0gn1t0 4h ago

That doesn't even make sense as a meme. 

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u/HidingImmortal 3h ago

Anyone can die before the story is finished. Rob Stark, George RR Martin, ...

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u/bassonaitor 3h ago

I stopped waiting loooong ago. I don't even watch any of the shows

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u/guylasagna 3h ago

I think that the finale we got in GOT was actually the one he planned, everyone hated it, and now he doesn’t know where to go and what to do

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u/Cthulhuthefirst 3h ago

Its just 1400s England with different names.

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u/orlyyarlylolwut 3h ago

That book ain’t coming out, dawg

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u/Brodieboyy Professional Dumbass 2h ago

There's too many good books out there you haven't read yet to get hung up on books that will probably never be released

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u/Relevant-Bullfrog215 2h ago

Oh, my sweet summer child, he hasn't spent the last 14 years writing those books.

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u/So_many_things_wrong 2h ago

GRRM's approach to writing only really works for short stories where the ramifications of character actions can't spiral wildly out of control. In fact, I find it a bit weird that people ever expected some huge satisfying payoff at the end of the story considering that his short stories never do. They kinda just peter out into nothing at the conclussion.

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u/Monomanga 2h ago

I present to you "The Name of The Wind" series. We are dying for the "Doors of Stone"

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u/DanceMyth4114 1h ago

He's never going to finish and we need to stop supporting him.

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u/Nice_Commission3770 1h ago

He hasn’t spent 14 years writing that book… he has spent 14 years not writing that book.

I’ve frequently not been on boats. And what I’ve been is not on boats.

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u/Obvious_Ad4159 25m ago

Honestly, I think the success of the show killed any remaining interest he had in finishing the book. Bro reached Tolkien levels of success, whilst being still alive to enjoy it, and decided to call it quits. I hope he finishes them books, but I strongly doubt it.

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u/degradedchimp 8m ago

The last book came out before skyrim