r/worldcup • u/tylerthe-theatre • 4h ago
đ°News Tuchel: DNA of English football needs changing after World Cup semifinal collapse
https://www.espn.co.uk/football/story/_/id/49378162/thomas-tuchel-england-football-dna-world-cup-changed-semifinal-argentina-exit22
u/corobo England 3h ago
The DNA of English football is always "oh we're a goal up? Basically won it then. Good job lads."
Turtle up when it's 4-0 not 1-0 :(Â
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u/Ok_Environment6466 3h ago
Yeah, a lot of people seem to have missed the fact they started dropping off long before Tuchel made any subs.
It was just an instinctive reaction by the players. Contrast it with how Spain reacted to going a goal up against France. They're jist much better than England at controlling a game by controlling possession.
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u/hutch_man0 2h ago
It's the manager's job to,
1) select based on form and also mentality 2) give positive reinforcement of mentality
He's the professor that wonders why all his students are failing and blames them instead of looking in the mirror. Slagging our boys too much. Toxic, needs to go.
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u/Ok_Environment6466 2h ago
"Your boys" were the problem.
Tuchel didn't tell them to immediately drop 10 yards off every time Argentina got the ball. The players did that all by themselves.
Tuchel is the professor trying to get his class to do basic addition and subtraction, only to look up and see his pupils eating crayons.
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u/hutch_man0 2h ago
Nah. Mentality should have been fostered months ago. It's why he was brought in ffs. Why wasn't he coaching what he wanted from the sideline? He had an entire hydration break to rally the troops. All these comments he makes...
It's maybe not in our DNA like it is in the Spanish DNA or Argentinian or Brazilian DNA to take the ball, control the game and the ball, which is also a big problem.
Is this his first match? He has never seen them play before?Â
Guy is piss poor. Not all the blame is on him but as a player you want a coach that you'd run through a wall for ie. Deschamps. Tuchel is the kind of coach players want to punch in the face, ie. the post Norway comments from Bellingham.Â
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u/EfficientArugula8627 3h ago
This argument would make sense if it were not for the fact Tuchel reacted far to late with the final subs, which in my mind proves he didnt know what to do.
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u/Ok_Environment6466 3h ago
He gave it 10 mins after the goal. Then tried to address it at the hydration break. A few mins after the hydration breaks, it became clear the players weren't able to get out of their shell, so he made changes.
With hindsight he may well do things differently, but the majority of the blame lies with the players.
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u/Inevitable-Fan-2634 2h ago
Now I look at it with a bit more perspective. He has a point. The stats after we scored are insane. Maybe he thought 'These midfielders are just going to sit on top of the defence, might as well put defenders on' I blamed TT straight after the defeat, and he has to shoulder some of the blame.
We've still not had an English manger win the PL. As has been said England seem to be totally paralyzed by the "fear of losing"
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u/Ok_Environment6466 2h ago
I think the extra defenders were an attempt to deny Messi space while increasing the aerial power to deal with crosses. Messi kept drifting out to the right. A back three allows the LB to close him down quicker, and either a CM or the left sided CB to double up on him to some extent. It didn't work, obviously, but this was more down to individual errors than anything else.
For the first goal, the defence is just too slow to push out. They should've been able to catch Messi offside, but the defence was lazy, or more likely too scared to push out from their 6 yard box.
The second goal is a guy of what, 5 ft 8 winning an open header against a team packed with hulking CBs.
And on the rare occasions England got the ball they could barely string two passes together, so it was just wave after wave of attack, and the more attacks they faced the more they dropped off. Spoke more to a lack of leadership/experience on the park IMO. Unpopular opinion,but it was crying out for a Jordan Henderson type of player to come on and try to sort out the midfield.
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u/Inevitable-Fan-2634 2h ago
Henderson would've been a decent choice. People moaning about no Foden, Cole or Mainoo didn't get used.
in my opinion these just would have got bullied the wouldn't have got the treatment the do in the Premier off the referee in that game. and they would've just be passengers.
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u/EfficientArugula8627 2h ago
We were saying it at the time that we needed fresh legs. How couldn't he see it?
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u/rustyb42 World Cup 3h ago
A mantra not visible at all in the Premier League, somehow makes an appearance in the international side
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u/Zealousideal_Spirit9 3h ago
In the Euro 2024 final when Palmer scored that banger I was worried for Spain's chances. But suddenly England looked like they were trying to go for a draw instead of pursuing the win. Only when they were trailing in the scoreboard they showed more spark. I don't understand the reason but for sure your players should be able to get a better hold of the game.
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u/shatlouf France 3h ago
Says the guy who litterally parked the bus after 1 goal đ¤Łđ¤Ł .
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u/Odd-Pollution9011 2h ago
âŚand likely told his players âGet in Messiâs face and antagonise him â which just pissed Messi off and galvanised the whole Argentinian squad included the bench warmers who would die for the guy. Stupid semi amateur league 2 tactics.
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u/UnequalCarcass 2h ago
Blaming the DNA is a convenient excuse when you're the one picking the squad and the tactics. Own the loss or don't, but don't act surprised by how it unfolded.
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u/malin7 2h ago
Shame the technical players with composure who fit this new age DNA were left at home - Palmer, Foden, Trent, you could argue Maguire as well as he's better at bringing the ball out of defence than Konsa
Mainoo who's got a great close control and can play short, snappy passes didn't even get a sniff
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u/Inevitable-Fan-2634 2h ago
England after scoring had 38 touches of the ball after we scored and only 12 yes 12 successful passes and 2 of them where from the kick off. No player is coming on and changing that mindset.
Edited. This was from when England scored till Argentina's second goal.
Them stats are wild.
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u/Whole-Strawberry3281 England 2h ago
We had 6 defenders so couldn't pass it out. Tuchels subs were a disaster anyone could have predicted
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u/Inevitable-Fan-2634 2h ago
Agree the subs were shite but them stats over 35 minutes and we had 12 successful passes is absolutely abysmal.
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u/SoutieNaaier South Africa 2h ago
Lol yeh
After all that all investment, they hire a German who picks a stereotypical English bulldog type team.
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u/reznoverba 3m ago
I'll say this. Compared to the MX game, you guys looked soft out there. Argentina came to win by any means necessary, you guys came to compete in a match. It meant more to them . Argentina came out guns blazing, and even when they didn't have possession, they played dirty and physical. Not saying you guys had to scoop down to their level, but the players needed to show more fight during the game, not after (eg. Bellingham).
HOWEVER, the game was lost bc of Tuchel and his strategy. He thought he was gonna park the bus successfully vs Argentina, the way he did vs Mexico. The big difference is (it pains me to say it), Argentina, unlike Mexico, has elite talent that can break that strategy. They don't cross aimlessly the way Gallardo did. That FernĂĄndez shot from outside the box is exactly how you beat a parked bus. England imploded bc of Tuchel's strategy, but man, the way you guys were being bullied around was hard to watch.
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u/Ok_Landscape_3958 2h ago
The players couldn't play a straight pass way before Tuchel did the changes.
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u/thaprizza 2h ago
He shouldnât be making big statements right after his tactical choices cost England the game (or at least strongly influenced the outcome)
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u/Electrical_Doctor305 33m ago
All Iâm hearing from this guy is he thinks heâs great and not the problem for the collapse.
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u/Few-Conversations 3h ago
When the moron Ishowspeed, who knows as much about football as a snail knows quantum physics, was able to predict what was going to happen from Tuchels changes, then its unforgivable that Tuchel couldn't see how it would end.Â
That performance from the manager is the biggest resigning/sackable offence i can remember since the Iceland defeat under RoyÂ
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u/fractals83 England 2h ago
Ok heâs trying to get fired now. Makes sense with his âcontract until the Euroâ bit after the game too. The FA need to get rid of this guy, like 5 mins after her gets off the plane on Sunday
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u/Due-Pineapple-2 1h ago
No heâs just right ffs. Weâve seen this with for decades now
(Although mainoo shouldâve come on)
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u/KayJay282 1h ago
There's some truth to what he's saying.
But it's also true that his tactics are solely to blame.
Everyone watching in real time could see the blunder he was making.
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u/Ephexion 1h ago
Ye we need to fire anyone who wants to change our football. Crumbling when it matters is our thing
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u/DayMurky617 1h ago
He's not trying to change our football, he's bitching and blaming everyone else.
All of the age group England sides play possession football, because of changes the FA made in the 2010s.
We now have loads of players who can play a possession game, but Tuchel didn't pick them.
This is 100% on him and his failed strategy.
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u/MobilePiano1875 England 2h ago
He knows full well the fans have turned on him now heâs just trying to down tools to get sacked for the payoff instead of resigning like a respectable person would.
âThe dna of English footballâ probably isnât playing within our own penalty area with a back 6 and no outlet.
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u/EustaceBicycleKick 2h ago
Only fringe have turned on him, he got one half of one game wrong the whole tournament. Yes it cost us but a manager of his pedigree will learn and adapt.
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u/MobilePiano1875 England 1h ago edited 48m ago
Iâm sorry but if a so-called elite manager has to âlearn and adaptâ from putting 6 defenders on to protect a one goal lead with over 40 mins left to play then he was never truly an elite manager in the first place.
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u/EustaceBicycleKick 1h ago
Won the champions league and also been a runner up in it with two separate teams. But let me guess let's get Eddie Howe in because he's much better.
He reacted to the players dropping deep, he got it wrong but he had to roll the dice. The learn and adapt comment is about his squad selection. We clearly needed someone like Wharton out there.
The way we are reacting to this is why everyone calls us arrogant. There are so many factors to this loss not all of them fall at Tuchels door.
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u/MobilePiano1875 England 1h ago edited 4m ago
International and club football are completely different beasts and nice strawman keep guessing.
Managers always take the lions share of the blame, thatâs how football works. Youâre spinning a pretty bad overall tournament performance into âone bad half of footballâ lmao, we conceded 2 goals against Croatia in the first half of the first fucking group game. Couldnât beat Ghana, barely scraped past Congo and Mexico, played terrible against Norway, objectively deserved to lose but time and time again got bailed out by Kane and Jude. I donât think we watched the same games or if we did then we came to complete opposite conclusions.
The vast majority of people who call england fans arrogant arenât english and usually have an active dislike of english/british people and our culture. Their opinions are irrelevant and come from either a deep seated trauma, jealousy or bitterness as far as Iâm concerned.
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u/griminald 56m ago
Yeah I can't tell if it's the media following the fans' lead or vice versa.
Going into that game, especially after Tuchel had it out with that one reporter over mentality, is that Tuchel did a good job, the players like him, media is just picking fights etc.
Now people are pretending Tuchel is some dummy.
Course it doesn't help that Tuchel has a habit of passing blame outwards when the heat is on him.
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u/mellifluousmark 1h ago
Nah, he made mad decisions. Putting Eze on for Rice against Norway complete changed the game, in Norway's favour. You're dominating midfield, with Mainoo on the bench, and you make one of the most baffling substitutions imaginable. Fair play, they scraped through. But that was despite his decision to give away control of the game.
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u/Distinct-Plane3171 1h ago
England definitely opted to play defensively in alot of their knockout games, esp from Mexico, Norway, and to their Argentina game. He definitely is to blame for bad decisions, but at the same time is it not also partially the players fault?
I actually thought England was starting to struggle against Argentina towards halftime and onward. Englands initial formations may not have been holding up as planned, and if for whatever reason any of the players were worried / tired he may have had to go defensive because he thought the team wouldn't be able to hold up.
Def not saying he made the right call and def not the right subs, but idk I think it might be more of a collective disappointment rather than purely just a coaching issue.
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u/theabominablewonder 3h ago
âItâs not me, itâs your DNAâ
Bit of a worrying phrase really! I think they said that in the 1930s!
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u/Ok_Landscape_3958 2h ago
England reaches World Cup semifinal: Tuchel is the saviour!
England loses World Cup semifinal: Tuchel is a Kraut and incompetent.
LoL
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u/spookynemo87 3h ago
I agree Thomas. If only there was a guy who was paid an astronomical sum of money to do that. You know a guy who responsible for team selection and patterns of play who could help mould the playing identity. Someone who could implement changes before tournaments by rotating the squad until they play in a certain way and then sticking with it. Someone to manage the team. If only eh Tommy?
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u/Ok_Landscape_3958 2h ago
Where was the best striker in world? Did Harry "I felt a touch and went down" Kane actually play? Where were all those so-called world class players England seems to have in a abundance?
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u/spookynemo87 2h ago
What's that got to do with the DNA of the team? Where was the substitution on 60 minutes when we were getting penned back and Kane was being a passenger to bring Watkins on to give us an attacking outlet with some pace? Where was Mainoo coming on for Rice to slow things down and change the tempo. Mismanagement at the highest level.
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u/Ok_Landscape_3958 2h ago
If you aren't getting robbed you get mismanaged. Maybe England isn't good enough 60 years of no success don't lie
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u/spookynemo87 2h ago
Which team do you support? Can you say hand in heart there are no England players you would want in your team? We weren't robbed. Argentina were the better team, we were also mismanaged. Both can be true.
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u/Ok_Landscape_3958 2h ago
Usually you are robbed. Or mismanaged. Because England fans think their players and their team are "worldclass" even when they have never reached a world cup final in the last 60 years.
You are a medium sized fish in a tank full of medium sized fishes. With a a few big fishes in it.
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u/spookynemo87 2h ago
Bellingham is world class. Kane is world class. The rest are good players. Some are just ok.
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u/CluckyFlucker 3h ago
Yeah totally the DNA when youâre the one who made the changes and selection.
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u/GoRangers5 USA 58m ago
Brian Kelly type of statement, yes there is some true to it, when Pick slammed the ground giving up the equalizer, the team caved like a loss was inevitable. However thatâs when a true leader needs to âjump on the sword,â and take ownership of his âlead sittingâ strategy, your players are never going to give their 110% if you publicly slam them.
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u/sumunsolicitedadvice 9m ago
Very on point. Leadership across the board looked poor. When you give up that equalizer, thatâs when guys like Kane and Bellingham need to be immediately picking up Pickford and the defenders with a âDonât worry, weâll get it backâ message and rallying the rest of the guys. The most dangerous time for any team giving up a goal is right after theyâve scored. England shouldâve taken charge and attacked like a team possessed, like a team lead by William Wallace. Instead, they looked completely defeated, even tho it was still a tied game.
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u/Vauxie10 1h ago
The dna has changed but he decided to leave the players with the changed dna at home lol , Wharton Foden Palmer Gibbs White all players who like to keep the ball comfortable in possession and all of them left out . Come on Tuchel you made mistakes so own them .
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u/Nandor1262 England 1h ago
OfcâŚ. if it was any other team in the World Cup played 4 centre backs and 2 fullbacks at the same time theyâd have played slick Tika-Taka and wouldâve scored another 2
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u/GlennSWFC 3h ago
He needs to go. This is up there with the Iceland defeat for the manner in which we lost. Yes, it was against a much stronger team, but the way we offered nothing and didnât react to previous bad decisions other than to double down on them showed the same tactical naivety.
I wasnât as eager to see him go until he came out with the âDNAâ nonsense, but this shows an unwillingness to accept that his decisions cost us there. Heâs not going to learn from it, heâll do that again and blame the âDNAâ.
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u/psdavepes 3h ago
Surely the ÂŁ10m a year manager could help change that, especially blaming that when he picked physicality players over technical players in his squad selection?
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u/AllBaseBelongtoUS 3h ago
Need a better coach to win. One that understands players as much as the game.
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u/MetroidvaniaListsGuy 4h ago
No, they just need to stop acting and play football.
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u/Alacho 4h ago
Thatâs their DNA, thoughâŚ
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u/MetroidvaniaListsGuy 4h ago
No, that is the DNA of the netherlands, and I have no idea how it got into the English team. The Netherlands never won a world cup.
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u/Alacho 3h ago
Harry Kane and Elliot Anderson are literally described as the divers of football this World Cup, and for the former, it extends into his club games as well. It would surprise me if the latter doesnât do the same at City, too.Â
Jordan Pickford is the definition of talking smack and becoming a whiney bitch when the opposition players do it back to him.Â
And Jude Bellingham is the sorest loser to ever walk the football pitch, even turning to violence.
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u/MetroidvaniaListsGuy 3h ago
Yeah, its the exact shit that the Netherlands used to do in 2014 and before. No idea why the English became so dutch.
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u/Illustrious-Gur8335 3h ago
And Jude Bellingham is the sorest loser to ever walk the football pitch, even turning to violence.
Well Mbappe smacked Unai Simon in the face so it's not just the English.Â
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u/RipCurl69Reddit 3h ago
Can excuse Pickford moaning because his results actually speak for his skill. Can't speak on the first two as I don't follow their club stuff
And I know for a fact that you're referencing that slap he did to the ginger; with how the Argies were acting that wasn't exactly unwarranted. Chances are he was saying something cheeky in Spanish that he didn't expect Jude to catch. It's not like he's got a reputation of clocking people mid-game because he's in a rage
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u/Alacho 3h ago
Meh, Pickford is a B-rated, average keeper at best. He is worthy of the current Three Lions, but thatâs because they are an absolute average team at best. Which was fully shown this World Cup.
Donât care whether the Argentinian said anything to him. Violence is never called for, and the fact that people are making excuses on Bellinghamâs behalf for it speaks loads about them as people.
Do you excuse Suarez for biting players three times, too?
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u/RipCurl69Reddit 3h ago
Was Suarez during or after the game? I don't care if it's after, short of them whacking chairs at eachother WWE style, that's their business. But a slap isn't gonna kill the Argie (though he is ginger, it just might)
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u/Alacho 3h ago
During the games.
https://youtu.be/Uy31pdfntUw?is=c2tD7XXK9IKI7E38
But I get a sense and feeling that if the slap had been the other way around, you would have asked for the Argentinians head, so I think I am out.
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u/RipCurl69Reddit 3h ago
Nah, if anyone on the English team had been gobbing off enough to deserve a smack post-match, I would've A; fully expected it coming from Argentina and B; probably laughed
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u/Ok_Landscape_3958 2h ago
The Netherlands reached 3 world cup finals and won the European championship though
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u/SeoulGalmegi 3h ago
I mean.... duh?
What has he been doing for his five million the last two years?
Southgate got us over penalties.
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u/Inner-Improvement970 1h ago
I was just thinking how well he's done for england b4 they lost to the argies, but then after they scored a goal they park the bus and play negative footie! Players did that not the coach! #justsaying
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