r/gaming 1d ago

The Digital Ownership Debate Just Got Bigger: EFF Takes Aim at Sony

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2026/07/sony-nerfs-videogame-ownership

The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF), one of the world's leading digital rights organizations, says Sony's digital-first strategy is eroding what it means to own a video game. The group argues that consumers are increasingly purchasing revocable licenses instead of products they fully control.

2.3k Upvotes

372 comments sorted by

860

u/Mysterious_Pop9483 1d ago

Sony really shot themselves in the foot by announcing the end of disc support. It's sad really.

502

u/AtaxicHistorian 1d ago

The issue of ownership is still an issue, with or without the presence of physical media. Laws need to be updated to account for ownership in all digital platforms.

193

u/juliuseizureee 1d ago

Exactly... If I'm paying $70–80 for a game, I shouldn't feel like I'm renting it indefinitely. Digital is convenient, but ownership should still mean something.

78

u/InfernalBiryani 23h ago

Yep. Getting rid of discs absolutely sucks, but digital rights management (DRM) is the single biggest obstacle to true ownership.

46

u/Dodgy_Past 22h ago

Fortunately the PS5 has been hacked and the games are making their way onto the internet. Emulation will eventually enable preservation.

38

u/Gentleman_Villain 21h ago

The problem with this is that it a) opens the emulators up to legal ramifications and b) still doesn't protect the consumers at all.

Do I think it's a good thing this is happening? Yes. Do I think it does anything to actually solve the problem? No.

12

u/Akrevics 17h ago

most people only emulate when obtaining the media they wish to pirate isn't easily accessible or affordable in their current financial situation. When these two conditions are fulfilled, purchase is made legitimately. Sony is fast-tracking those conditions where retro usually fulfils them.

0

u/Forymanarysanar 13h ago

Getting rid of discs is absolutely fine. What's not fine is presence of DRM in a product you purchase. If I'm buying a product I should be able to run it on any hardware without ever connecting to the internet. Therefore if I can do it I can make my own discs without any problems.

13

u/InfernalBiryani 23h ago

Yep. Getting rid of discs absolutely sucks, but digital rights management (DRM) is the single biggest obstacle to true ownership.

0

u/suzisatsuma 21h ago

For single player / local? sure.

For online service games I'm not sure this make sense.

0

u/Numerous_Photograph9 20h ago

My solution to that is just not paying full price. Theyll be in the sub 20 range one day, and I can wait until sub 10. Even with some semblance of customer ownership, which consumer should have, its not what I'm looking for for ownership

3

u/Akrevics 16h ago

who says you'll get €20 or €10 games? GOWR is 70 on the ps store isn't it? how many years after release? when they have total control over where you buy this game, why would they lower the price down past 50? that's already nearly 30% and they'll be getting far more than they would if it was permitted to be physical media. imagine it's like BOTW, 8 years old and still €60 at most retailers.

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u/Konarkanuck 13h ago

Without the control group represented by physical media and it allowing for discount bins and 2nd hand sales, there is nothing holding the Playstation Store in check when it comes to setting prices.

What makes things even worse, compared to PC where there are multiple options on where to buy digital games, Sony will be creating a monopoly situation where Playstation gamers have but one purchase option. If that above doesn't concern a player, add in Sony playing with Dynamic Pricing so that you and I may or may not get the same price.

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u/TheBetterness 19h ago

Very much so, Sony also licenses the content it sells outside its own IP.

And those publishers also have licences for various content created within their games.

There are so many layers to this that its beyond "muh discs" and just personal ownership.

In reality, the tech industry shot itself in the foot ages ago with this greedy af business model. They are doing it again with "ai tokens".

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u/Googoo123450 15h ago

Yeah this conversation is getting so drowned out by the physical media discussion. Ending physical media sucks but it'd suck a whole lot less if we could still own our digital games.

2

u/AtaxicHistorian 15h ago

Exactly! Digital ownership has been an issue with or without physical media. Removing physical just makes the problem more obvious.

1

u/ButterscotchAward 17h ago

This is the real issue.

2

u/InfernalBiryani 23h ago

Eliminating physical media is definitely egregious, but I think people are forgetting that DRM is the bigger threat to game ownership. If the future of gaming is gonna be mostly if not entirely digital, then we need to get rid of DRM as it is implemented right now.

0

u/TheJackiMonster 13h ago

The Free Software Foundation already found a solution decades ago. If you want to be sure to own digital media, demand a license that lets you own it.

1

u/AtaxicHistorian 13h ago

I don’t disagree with the principle. DRM-free licences and local copies are a much better model. The problem is that consumers usually don’t get to negotiate those terms. Steam, PlayStation, Xbox, iTunes and similar platforms dictate the licence.

It also doesn’t fully answer what happens when a platform shuts down or is replaced, as happened with Stadia and Games for Windows Live. Consumers need enforceable rights to retain access, download their purchases, or receive a remedy when the service they bought them through disappears.

That’s why I think this is ultimately a legal issue. The law needs to catch up with digital purchases rather than leaving ownership entirely dependent on whatever licence a platform chooses to offer.

0

u/TheJackiMonster 4h ago

Steam doesn't dictate the license. The person who publishes the software on Steam does. You can actually publish a DRM-free software on Steam and you can also publish free software there. Just most people don't do that.

The only thing Steam dictates is that you can't pick those terms if you integrate their Steamworks API since it's a proprietary API from Valve. I'd argue that's fair. Because you don't need to integrate that.

1

u/AtaxicHistorian 3h ago

So you’re now suggesting we approach publishers instead after saying “If you want to be sure to own digital media, demand a license that lets you own it”…

What are you even arguing???

0

u/TheJackiMonster 3h ago

Very simple. Demand a license that lets you own digital media. Don't buy into illusions of ownership.

Don't pay for things you can not own.

1

u/AtaxicHistorian 3h ago

Sure, but do you really think the need for the digital ownership laws on all digital platforms isn’t needed?

0

u/TheJackiMonster 2h ago

I think there is no reality in which capitalists allow such a law to pass. All they want is to create subscription models for everyone where they are the only one owning anything.

A law preventing this is absolutely terrible for them. So they will move a ton of money to prevent that.

It is far easier to boycott proprietary license models and support license models that grant you actual ownership.

1

u/AtaxicHistorian 2h ago

Yes, it is terrible for them. Again, sweeping digital ownership laws need to be updated for all platforms. I’m willing to bet most gamers aren’t willing to demand a licence for each and every game they want to purchase.

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u/BookkeeperOK14 19h ago

They definitely did not shoot themselves in the foot. They eliminated their biggest competition.

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u/Ch35hir3C47 1d ago

Sadly, you're not entirely accurate. I'm certainly annoyed with the removal of disc support, but they really don't care about us customers.

The only thing that matters to Sony is that the line goes up and their Stockholders are happy. Not even the long-term line though, only the short-term line. Long-term is the next executives problem.

50

u/Winjin 1d ago

China just ruled that games and game ownership are inheritable

If they enforce it this is going to be HUGE and will mean that half of SEA is going to follow.

If India does the same, it means like what, 20% of gamers worldwide are suddenly entirely protected from companies "just disabling games" because suddenly courts can be like "I don't care what your terms of service say, the federal law says digital assets are inheritable"

Because if someone's "digital games" are inheritable, you can't just "revoke access"

Otherwise what stops the companies from taking away your access to, say, stock profiles? They are digital only too.

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u/wickeddimension 1d ago

A digital license being inheritable does not mean that it can't be revoked.

19

u/poonedundies 1d ago

I think you are correlating two things incorrectly. I mean maybe in SEA it will mean something different than the US or the rest of the West but I doubt the account being inheritable would mean that they digital licenses you "purchase" are required to be forever. Two separate problems that need fixed.

-1

u/Winjin 1d ago

I'm more like conflating how one pulls another

If the assets are inheritable, naturally companies would pitch them as "long term available"

Think of it like a Chinese company outright pitching "we have pledged the Heirloom support, as soon as game reaches End of Life, we comply fully with authorities and will provide offline mode"

So if a player with money to spare has to choose between a game that's guaranteed to work and one with literally zero promises to work for even a month...

It doesn't mean that it completely changes the field but it does provide serious reason to consider that a huge market is changing from this "you will own nothing" grey zone to a regulated one

4

u/Ch35hir3C47 1d ago

Yeah, I agree that there should be customer rights involved, I am one after all. I think there used to be some form of customer protection for games in the UK, but this was pre-internet when they were all on floppies, tapes and cartridges.

The companies these days tend to make the argument of us paying for the license to use their game, not the game itself, and that they can remove it when/if they feel like it. Probably written in their T&Cs somehow too.

Doesn't help that the game is only occasionally fully on the disc these days and it's instead an installer that needs to connect to and download files over the internet.

5

u/dende5416 1d ago

The reason why they don't care about consumers is us being such collective push overs and any talk of just being done and not buying is met with the negativity of "theres no point it does nothing."

If nothing else, it makes me feel better not supporting it. The only way to win is for line to go down but least I can do is not help it go up.

1

u/TheBetterness 18h ago

Truly thats the crux of much of the outrage.

Tons of gamers thought Sony cared about gaming.

And found out what many of us have been saying for years about Sony and their predatory ecosystem.

Too busy console warring.

3

u/Cmdrdredd 16h ago

Only echo chambers like Reddit really think that

5

u/Rukasu17 1d ago

Actually it's quite happy now that it's bringing so much attention to the elephant in the room that is how shitty our current digital ownership laws are.

5

u/PhabioRants 21h ago

For years I've been suggesting that Microsoft would need to undercut Sony by 50% on the next console generation if they want to right the ship and build a customer base back up. 

Turns out all they need to do is nothing and watch Sony hand over the market. 

It's been a wild popcorn show to watch this unfold as an independent observer with no horse in this race. I don't play games or use hardware/software affiliated with either of these companies, so watching them Mr. Magoo their way from one PR disaster to another has been wild. 

It's also crazy that Sony would pull the disc sharing PR stunt to bury Microsoft a couple generations ago and then meander out into that minefield themselves having learned absolutely nothing. These corporations seem to forget that without discs and tribalism, they're just scuffed PCs that are too expensive. 

2

u/Ahayzo 20h ago

I still think Xbox is planning on moving away from physical next gen as well, but they're definitely riding the high while they can. Might be the first really good move they've made in a long time. Especially with the timing of the disc-to-digital info gradually leaking.

I'm not surprised Sony is making the move now though. When Xbox tried it, digital gaming on console wasn't remotely the big deal it is now. They were trying to make a switch to something that didn't have a whole lot of popularity yet. I don't know if I trust Sony's specific numbers, but I have no doubt that digital gaming is notably more popular than physical, so they can afford the risk.

2

u/Nurgle_Marine_Sharts 7h ago

Is this a joke? Do you genuinely think Xbox is suddenly going to explode with subscribed users and console sales?

!RemindMe 5 years

lmao

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u/kearkan 23h ago

Ownership has been an issue before disc support ended, it's only now that people who werent already deep into the communities are realising.

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u/dropdan 1d ago

The saddest thing is that they announced it now on purpose. Because the idea here is to announce such polarizing news now so then when they announced the actual product (they hope) the controversy will have died down and most people won't care. This type of change is always planned ahead.

1

u/primalmaximus 22h ago

Should have just quietly rolled it out.

1

u/Nearby-Priority4934 16h ago

Yeah given that PC did it years ago and Xbox is also doing it it’s really weird how Sony have become a magnet for outrage simply for being transparent about future plans that were always going to be inevitable.

1

u/ryukeio 15h ago

Yeah. They should’ve just kept slowly dialing back support without officially saying anything.

Take a small thing away, add a barrier, give people time to accept it as normal. Over time it adds up and suddenly everyone’s lost that style of access or usability.

It’d still get caught and have people fighting it, but PR-wise it wouldn’t have been the oil-fire that this is.

1

u/Rootbeer_Goat 13h ago

Microsoft and Sony deserve to be the next Atari and Sega by failing out of console market but who knows what will actually happen?

1

u/mokujin42 7h ago

The entire games industry was on this lets be honest, sony just volunteered itself as the guinnie pig

1

u/Keviticas 23h ago

The rebellion is insanely massive over on Twitter right now in comparison to reddit.

-1

u/fragmental 1d ago

They shot off their own disc.

0

u/NightOfPandas 1d ago

Not rly, everyone blowing up about the Sony thing conveniently ignores that we've been headed this way the whole time since steam got popular. We've been off discs since steam became a thing in the mid 2000s

0

u/Shalhadra 21h ago

Gotta love their strategy though:

Step 1 - Remind everyone how digital stores and their exclusive content don't last by announcing closure of PS3 PSN

Step 2 - Further cement distaste for digital purchasing by removing 500+ digital films that people payed for (with no compensation)

Step 3 - Just as everyone has been firmly reminded of the shit points of digital media - announce impending death of physical disks

Honestly that south park episode comes to mind of when the corp leaders cut off a chickens head and let the body run around on a wheel of options, and wherever it lands, that's what they go with

-2

u/RedGrassHorse 1d ago

I think discs arent really the issue. They are tied to a download and online checks anyway. They could just as easily make discs where you only tie the game to obe account.

Ownership of digital products is the issue, not physical media.

-1

u/Makototoko 1d ago

Where do you get the idea that discs require online checks, outside live service games?

Even considering what you say to be true, it's still an sellable/transferable license, and that should be enough reason to keep them around

But other than live service games and rare exceptions (e.g. Ubisoft/Xbox titles) the majority of games have full-data discs that can be installed offline, with v1.0 on discs that don't even need the day one patch they come with

If anyone thinks otherwise, it just shows a lack of research skills and understanding of the technology, or just an extremely limited scope in terms of what games they play

-2

u/TheOnly_Anti PC 1d ago

Where do you get the idea that discs require online checks, outside live service games? 

Must not have used a Blu Ray player in the past decade. 

7

u/Makototoko 1d ago

I am an avid physical collector. Frequently to this day.

Would you like to explain why you think discs requires an online check? This is obviously regarding anything that's not live-service based.

I must have had a magical PS5, not having internet for two months and miraculously installing and playing games with zero issues.

0

u/dookarion 23h ago

Blu-rays have had to update the DRM. It's not constant but it is a thing. It's why older consoles still sometimes get pushed an "update".

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u/Makototoko 23h ago

You're not wrong, but if someone has an older console outside its active lifespan why would they risk updating it if there was any chance they'd feel a change like that was coming?

Even with the possibility of a dystopian action like that they would never resort to something that final, they'd only shoot themselves in the foot for no benefit and all bad PR.

0

u/dookarion 22h ago

Because depending on the nature of the DRM update you may not be able to play media or at least newer media without it?

Like if you watch blu-ray movies, or ever try to watch them on a PC it becomes readily apparent how much of a pain in the ass DRM is. And it's not exactly a new thing either there were anecdotes in the past of people needing to buy a new dvd player because it wasn't reading new discs.

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u/Makototoko 22h ago

Newer media.

Let's first lay down that this conversation started with my reply to the misinformation that discs are tied to a download and require online checks they don't. If they did, I wouldn't have been able to install and play any games I got physically when I didn't have internet for two months. There is multiple testing that's been done regarding this.

When the conversation is especially about disc support ending, we're going to be left with whatever stats are there for 2028. Over 90% of tested games on DoesItPlay don't require any online check whatsoever, and 82% of them are stable enough with a v1.0 to not require a day one patch for functionality or anything else otherwise (66% mostly bugfree + 12% that have minor bugs that wouldn't affect most people anyways). If you look even closer at the games that land in the "Yes*" a lot of them are just missing DLC on the disc but are still good enough to not need a patch to play.

1

u/dookarion 22h ago

I was just pointing out there is still an online component to how it's handled.

If they did, I wouldn't have been able to install and play any games I got physically when I didn't have internet for two months.

I mean that alone doesn't prove much, perhaps the other testing you mention does. Like as an example in absence of hardware or configuration changes Denuvo protected games on PC can function or like a month or so, but that duration could be easily modified on their end. 2 months could easily be within the window of "DRM doesn't need to refresh yet", not saying this is the case just saying your evidence isn't fully conclusive in of itself not all DRM has short term authentication periods. Media itself can also in some situations ship with firmware and other updates embedded.

Again not saying it needs to constantly phone home like the other person, just it's actually more difficult to prove it doesn't need some kind of outside updates and 2 months isn't that long of duration.

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u/RedGrassHorse 1d ago

No im saying they could easily make it so that a disc is only usable for one account. Almost no disc holds the actual game anymore so you'll always need an internet connection to download, wouldnt be much effort to add a unique ID for each disc so it only works for one account.

The focus on physical media is misguided. It should be on ownership

2

u/Makototoko 1d ago

Again, where are you getting that idea? There are resources out there and testing that's been done that proved all of that wrong.

Most discs do have the full game. Most discs do not need the day one patch they have and the v1.0 they have are good enough. When you are "downloading" a game, you're copying data from the disc and installing it, not downloading from the internet. You can test this yourself.

When it comes to ownership, almost objectively it goes piracy>physical>digital when it comes to preservation and ownership. I could take my copy of Resident Evil 9 and install it offline on a banned console and it would still work perfectly fine. There's nothing they can do barring a system-wide wipe with a firmware update which would be a humongous PR nightmare with pretty much no upsides.

-2

u/hayt88 1d ago

Well today the stuff you get on the disk are mostly beta versions anyway so you need updates to get the game in a bugfree state (assuming the release is bugfree but try playing cyberpunk on the original disk version vs today). But even ignoring that, some games require a certain firmware version of your console, so you can't just buy a game and just assume your "always offline" console will just play that for a while now.

ignoring the fact that the tech on the discs itself could in theory brick your console or disable even physcial games if they wanted to. It's never been done before that way. But what has been done is having firmware updates on disks, that "updates" some blueray players to prevent them from playing newer modern blueray disks. If you start doubting that just look up what BD+ is and read about their history with AnyDVD.

Again it hasn't been done yet with games and most likely won't but if a company wanted to they could go that route.

But I assume you know about BD+ tech already and I am just saying that for others, as you clearly have not a "lack of research skills and understanding of the technology" and aren't just repeating what you heard from others.

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u/Makototoko 23h ago

Again, I've addressed this already, games are rarely incomplete and buggy to the point where the day one patch is needed. It's often to fix marginal issues that wouldn't affect most players, or at least to the point of ruining an experience. And obviously patches are preferred and can be put on discs anyways (like Cyberpunk Ultimate Edition having v2.0 on disc) but in a future where it's either the v1.0 or nothing at all I wonder what people would choose. Games have never been in a bugfree state like you are suggesting.

There are databases that test these offline capabilities, so you can say "some" games require firmware versions (please provide proof of this, I'd love to read on it) but these games are far and few between the statistical norm. Anything like Crimson Desert is an exception, not the rule. A firmware update that would wipe out a console's ability to play certain game(s) would do nothing but be a horrible PR nightmare with no benefit and can easily just not be updated. No company would go to those lengths.

And yes. I really do do my research. I do some of the testing myself. I was blind to these facts because I blindly parroted what everyone else echos online, unt I actually did research.

0

u/hayt88 17h ago

yeah but we aren't talking about PR. I agree that whenever someone does this it would mean scorched earth.

But to quote yourself: "understanding of the technology,"

We are talking about is what is technologically possible.

please provide proof of this, I'd love to read on it

https://prosperopatches.com/

Ps5 games. you can see required firmware version of each patch and basegame of the day. feel free to look up any game that is not "crimson desert".

https://www.orbispatches.com/

same for PS4

Funfact though and that is something I just learned, PS4 games carry the firmware update on the disk. so a PS4 game will install the required firmware with it.

Ps5 doesn't.

Btw this is also worst case doomsday scenario, you can always update firmware via usb, but more a "what if sony shuts down all servers and nobody has backed up the firmware version and now you can't download the firmware anymore".

But in the same vain the whole "we just got a license and don't own the game and they can just take them away" argument is something like that too. so we are kinda argueing in bad faith to sony here from the start anyways.

0

u/saxscrapers 21h ago

Meh I think in the long run it's good they showed their hand enough for more people to pause and think.

0

u/mka_ 21h ago

I hope it hurts them doen the line. There's too much negative news in the industry right now. It's collpasing. We need a win.

0

u/IceNein 20h ago

It’s insane to me that they didn’t just make the PS6 discless instead of trying to do this mid cycle.

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u/d_lev 1d ago

Personally I was done with Sony when my wireless earbuds didn't work with the ps4 I had. The earbuds cost way more than the ps4... So I have to buy a crappy headset. No thank you.

At this point I thinking it's a competition between ms and sony as to who can be the bigger moron.

Edit: they're sony earbuds.

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u/Frikandelneuker 1d ago

Forget the foot. Full on buckshot-up-the-ass

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u/wolflordval PC 1d ago

China just managed to make digital goods legally the same as physical ones, including inheritance rights & blocking companies from removing access. If they can do it, so can we.

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u/NatsUza 18h ago

As much as I like the China win, it's not rwally feasible outside of China because Chinese internet is tied to your actual givernment name and ID. When you make a Chinese league account, you ahve to submit your actual national ID number and verify your legal identity. China's able to make new digital ownership laws because of their ID system.

8

u/Varsity_Reviews 18h ago

Does steam even exist in China? I was under the impression steam was either not available or barely anything is on it.

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u/JoshJLMG 17h ago

Steam existing in China is the reason why reviews are sorted by language now. Chinese players would review-bomb games if it had translation issues.

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u/SiNDiLeX 16h ago

Chinese gamers would review bomb themselves into the abyss if it meant waking up with a smile in the morning

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u/wolflordval PC 16h ago

That's mostly because the discussion pages aren't available to them, and the reviews are the only way they can communicate externally.

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u/NatsUza 18h ago

Steam is available, it's just not as popular due to various games having Chinese only clients that can be gotten from the publishers directly.

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u/Arcranium_ 14h ago

Not to mention broad censorship of most of the entire Steam library

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u/Antergaton 1d ago

Using Sony as an example of how our rights to own our games have over time become less obvious can only be a good thing but change needs to be made for digital ownership rights across the board, not just games, and this will only happen at a governmental level.

That's a lot of hard work it seems and is a far bigger issue than just Sony aren't printing discs anymore.

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u/RyuChamploo 1d ago

Something tells me Sony consulted with their vast team of lawyers before making this decision. I hope something comes out of all these lawsuits to benefit consumers, but I have my doubts.

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u/Alarmed-Pair7685 1d ago

same I doubt Sony skipped legal review but that doesn't mean the laws can't change if enough pressure builds up

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u/Hercules__Morse 1d ago

What laws will change? It won't take long before blu-ray can't hold a full next-gen game. Governments can't force Sony to put disc drives in their consoles just as much as they can't force publishers to release physical copies of their software.

You really think the law is going to change, and tell all indie devs that they now MUST release physical copies of their self-developed games? Please.

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u/frostygrin 1d ago

Laws on digital ownership can change, or get reinterpreted in courts.

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u/KrimsunB 1d ago

You're absolutely correct in that nothing can be done to save physical media. That ship hasn't sailed yet, but they've drawn up the gangplank and have no intention of letting it down again.

However, the part that can still be saved is the right of ownership.
Digital ownership has to have the same rights as physical ownership.
That's what we need to be fighting for.

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u/_kellythomas_ 1d ago

First Sale Doctrine.

We should be able to sell, gift, or bequeath digital licenses at our discretion.

They manage the DRM and can transfer licenses between accounts, this should be a service offered at a minimal cost recovery based fee.

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u/Hercules__Morse 1d ago

Digital 'ownership' isn't a thing, there have always only been digital licenses.

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u/re_carn 1d ago

Digital ownership has to have the same rights as physical ownership.
That's what we need to be fighting for.

That won’t happen. A digital copy doesn’t become obsolete or lose its value, no matter how many people have owned it before, which means it won’t just compete with a new copy - it will undercut it. If a law is passed allowing it to be freely resold, even indie developers won’t find it profitable to make games. Not to mention more expensive games.

-1

u/Axel_Foley_ 18h ago

Why does digital ownership have to have the same rights as physical ownership?

Are you suggesting we make the idea and practice of a license illegal?

4

u/KrimsunB 17h ago edited 17h ago

I'm advocating for the medium of delivery being irrelevant.

Whether it's stored on a disc or a USB shouldn't matter.

If the solution to that is to make licences mandatory and the sale of the game be based on transferal of that code, then so be it.

1

u/Axel_Foley_ 17h ago

That’s the system we have in place right now.

Or, are you saying if I buy a digital license for a game, I would be able to transfer or sale that digital product to someone else should I choose to do so?

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u/KrimsunB 16h ago

Yes.
As things currently stand, the only place in the world you can purchase PS6 games will be on the Sony PlayStation Store.
This cannot be allowed to happen. A monopoly like this is so grossly anti-consumer that it would forever strip the customer of our rights.
They set the price to whatever they like while we don't even have the ability to share our purchases with friends—or even play it in a different country. Sony can even delete our games from our accounts for any reason they deem fit.
Even now, I can't play my store-bought games because I forgot my account password and can't log in to verify that I own a game I previously played to completion.
This is not okay.

2

u/Axel_Foley_ 15h ago

Sure it can be allowed to happen. It’s their product, they can choose who retails it.

What rights are being stripped? You’re not forced to play PS6 games. You have agency, if Sony charges more than you’re willing to pay, you can choose to not purchase the game!

It looks like the developer of the digital good doesn’t not want to sell their product with the ability for the customer to share it with others. That is completely understandable.

The license you purchase for a digital good stipulates that sharing the product is against the terms of service. If you don’t agree with those terms, you don’t have to purchase the product!

Again, I am for the business who make the content I enjoy making money. I’m glad Sony is taking steps to maximize their return on investment. That return will be used to make more content that I enjoy.

That’s unfortunate that you forgot your account password. I recommend you follow the steps to reset your password with Sony.

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u/Maelger 1d ago

It won't take long before blu-ray can't hold a full next-gen game.

Looks at his original release Final Fantasy 9 And? This is, and always has been, an irrelevant point.

0

u/Hercules__Morse 1d ago

The multi disc thing is not a great argument. You don't need to do that, when you can just release digitally. You are 1 of maybe 100 people in the world that want a game released on multiple discs.

1

u/Effective-Priority62 16h ago

And? People won't stop buying games with multiple discs or cartridges because of this lmao

And even if more games start crossing the 100 GB threshold at launch or release under 100GB but get a whooping 100 GB more in patches, two 100 GB discs should be more than enough for any competent publisher with the minimum skills, coordinating and manpower to optimize their games. Beyond that, it's just 300 GB live service or ball+gun slop. Nobody really cares, and most of their playerbase prefers to buy digital anyway. Just establish some law or rule that if your Call of Duty goes above 200 GB, you're legally not obligated to release it physically with multiple discs and instead just make it digital-only. Most of the better single player games and their reissues or definitive editions will come out way under that threshold anyway

1

u/Hercules__Morse 15h ago

Nah multiple discs is dumb. So unnecessary when there is a better way with digital distribution. Digital is the new standard that we are all going to adopt.

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u/nikolapc 1d ago edited 1d ago

LOL. They're losing lawsuits in countries that actually have consumer protection and getting new ones, plus governments are getting involved. Nishino consulted his bartender it seems.

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u/santathe1 1d ago

Which country are they losing in?

1

u/Neosss1995 5h ago

In mexico

22

u/clit_eastwood_ 1d ago

Which lawsuits did they lose?

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u/Efficient-Session644 1d ago

Seriously? What lawsuit they lost?

-12

u/Practical-Aside890 Xbox 1d ago edited 1d ago

Last one I seen was something that was ongoing I think from 2024 and up. They ended up doing a settlement and paying 7.85m to 4m customers.

Then there is the current one that’s 450m for disc thing. But I don’t think anythings come from it yet. A dutch group is doing that one. Then this added on that’s related but from the EFF. So not much losses so far. But a few things going on.

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u/nikolapc 20h ago

Also the one in UK that has gone to court and it's quite substantial.

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u/rvnender 1d ago

Sony hasnt lost anything since none of these have went to trial yet.

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u/AsianSteampunk 1d ago

i mean... that's the PSN store situation. They simply just say we don't operate in these territory.

The user in those countries? they gotta make an american or some other region account and use it that way. Which have been the norm practice for years now.

2

u/dookarion 23h ago

The user in those countries? they gotta make an american or some other region account and use it that way.

While Sony in plaintext in their ToS reserves the right to shutter those accounts without recourse. They get even less protections than the average person. And meanwhile on reddit everyone's like "make a different territory account its fine, gargle those corporate balls!"

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u/nikolapc 1d ago

They have a Sony representative in every country. They do other things than games. Anyway, not where they are getting sued and losing. PSN countries.

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u/AsianSteampunk 1d ago

their other business have nothing to do with the PS store. If you wanna get technical then they are not even the same company, just all owned by Sony.

-1

u/nikolapc 1d ago

The representatives sells PS here legally, liable. What's even more troubling, they sell digital consoles more now, and I can't legally make a PSN in my country. I can sue them to hell but that will just create problems for my fellow gamers like when they excluded 160 countries from Steam when they required PSN and fucked Helldivers 2 in the process. If they don't fix PSN to be in line like every other store, they can't sell here, but will.

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u/eiamhere69 19h ago

Lawyers make bank either way, more so in this case lol

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u/actanonverba1 1d ago

sony is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. i also work for a large corporation and our execs, strategy consultants, and lawyers make mistakes, literally all the damn time.

1

u/MadeByTango 1d ago

Governments evolve; 10 years ago there were not gamers in leadership, now there are. State Attorney generals are getting involved. This is not the slam dunk," ha ha we have more expensive lawyers" thing you think it is.

(Why is it always comment history hiding accounts that are defending these corporations with platitudes and no grounding evidence, I wonder...?)

0

u/ChanglingBlake 1d ago

Lawyers smawyers.

They are doing something that has no legal precedent; those lawyers have no clue what the back lash will be as any backlash legally would involves whole new laws.

0

u/noafro1991 1d ago

Yeah it makes me ask - what's the real motive behind this?

I say this even though I've never owned a console since the Gamecube.

2

u/PancAshAsh 22h ago

Discs are expensive to make and sell, and Sony probably sees almost all its profit come from the digital store purchases. Plus, the digital purchases give Sony ultimate price control for everything, and there's no secondhand market.

-1

u/MoonDoggie82 1d ago

Here's my thing, why is no one talking about the fact that Sony makes this announcement and goes radio silent. Since they knew people would be pissed they went radio silent. Although consumers are pissed the stock market sees the decision as "ooh more money" and the stock price goes up.

And like 2 days after the announcement when the stocks went up the Sony CEO sold MORE THAN HALF HIS STOCK IN SONY. The CEO didn't sell off a little of his stock in normal trading behavior, he sold more than half of the stocks he's hold in the company he is leading. Is that not concerning to shareholder....the board of directors... regulatory bodies?

2

u/Headless_Human 21h ago

Here's my thing, why is no one talking about the fact that Sony makes this announcement and goes radio silent. Since they knew people would be pissed they went radio silent

What are they supposed to say? Would you be satisfied with "We heard the complains but will still keep going with our plan."

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u/Glodraph 1d ago

It's not just sony. It's all the industry and all the platforms. Let's push SKG, let's reward GOG as much as possible. Let's boycott games and let's require ownership. Let's abolish DRM 5 years after launch and make installer available like GOG does, for ownership and preservation.

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u/That-Advance-9619 1d ago

This si the only way, it's not about the medium it's about ownership, and DRM-free is the only way to go around it.

As it stands, will I be able to play Mass Effect LE in 20 years when the EA App has inevitably closed? Will I be forced to buy Mass Effect LE2: Garrus Wears Red Now edition?

12

u/Dan1elSan 1d ago

Piracy is the only path to true ownership for games like these.

2

u/Glodraph 1d ago

It would be so easy too. Game is out for 5 years? You are mandated by law to remove the DRM and give offline installers on every platform. This applies for single player games and coop games, with a LAN/self hosted way to still play together. That's it. Live service games can still rot in corporate hell imo.

5

u/That-Advance-9619 17h ago

Gamers down voting you because they can't even defend their own interests...

Bunch of morons...

Cyberpunk 2077 has sold 40M copies and it was Drm-free from day one, people. Nobody gives a fuck that it has no DRM yet it is a huge win for the consumer.

5

u/Glodraph 17h ago

People buy good games and sadly a lot of bad games too. Going against consumers is going against money. A lot of drm games, as you said, sold tons of copies over the years. People against the removal of drm by law are stupid af, the kind of people that pollute buying disposable vapes.

3

u/knows_you 17h ago

Why even bother trying to pretend there is a remote possibility of a general strike for gamers, its just not going to happen.

I would say you have a better chance to start off with just convincing those people to pirate it than give it up completely.

45

u/mrmivo 1d ago

Where was all this outcry when PC gamers lost physical media and proper game ownership (ability to trade and sell purchased games) many years ago?

Over a decade ago, a EU court had ruled that software licenses are transferrable (cases involving Microsoft and Oracle) and there was talk about a new EU directive that would allow gamers to trade and sell their digital games. That never went anywhere, except for one thing: Valve changed the Steam's User Agreement to a Steam's Subscriber's Agreement, which states that buyers of Steam games subscribe to licenses, which is not the same as owning licenses,. That also never got any attention at the time.

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u/JAXxXTheRipper 1d ago edited 1d ago

You never own licenses, changing the wording to "subscribe to license" does nothing. A license is inherently a revocable agreement.

Ownership is simply not part of a licensing agreement. It is a permission of usage, always has, always will be.

If ownership was imparted in any way, you'd not need a license...

Edit: Someone brought up the EU ruling about resale of licenses, which is an interesting point, but unfortunately deleted their comment again.

About that. That ruling only applies to perpetual licenses (sometimes also called full licenses). Not limited licenses. Perpetual Licenses are very much a niche these days. Most vendors only grant limited term / subscription / SaaS based licenses to which that ruling simply does not apply.

14

u/actanonverba1 1d ago

It did go somewhere - it was litigated in french court vs steam and steam won unfortunately. That doesn't mean we give up, that just means we try again.

8

u/dookarion 23h ago

Where was all this outcry when PC gamers lost physical media and proper game ownership (ability to trade and sell purchased games) many years ago?

Because we lost all that shit to DRM well before physical copies stopped shipping. Thanks to companies like Sony with their Securom DRM, their Sony BMG rootkit, TAGES, Starforce, etc. physical media on PC has fucking sucked. There was a period of time where even playing purchased music on PC was a pain in the ass. I have physical games that can't even be installed because the OS blocks their malware ass DRM schemes. You can't resell a game where the DRM ties authentication to the hardware, physical or not.

We had worthless discs and boxes and none of the rights physical in other mediums brings. Add in publishers were increasingly skipping the platform to chase console money. The platform was dying so Steam and GOG ended up being an easier pill to swallow, especially since it reset the counter a bit on how shit DRM was getting.

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u/dtaddis 1d ago

I know it's starting to sound like a cliché, but PC is a bit of a different situation. It's an open system.

There are services like GOG which will let you download offline installers with no DRM. And even if Steam turns evil, people will still find a way to let you play your games. 🦜

1

u/ProNerdPanda 20h ago

You're being downvoted but you're right lol the problem with a closed console system is that Sony is placing itself as the only storefront available on the platform, and the only way for devs to sell games on the PS, it's basically a monopoly (not that it wasn't in spirit before, but at least devs didn't HAVE to go through the store to sell games)

PC is an open market, yes Steam is basically the best service, but nothing is stopping you from exclusively playing using the EA store (aside from sanity)

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u/dtaddis 20h ago

Haha yes exactly. Well put.

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u/voreo 1d ago

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Gabe has some sort of switch in place to just turn steam into gog before he heads out lol

-4

u/Lindestria 1d ago

Steam already has cases where games they can no longer sell are still downloadable for those who bought it (Neverwinter Nights 2) so I wouldn't be surprised if Gabe ever had plans to go further.

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u/TheGreatTao 1d ago

Every platform allows redownloading games that aren't for sale anymore.

1

u/Lindestria 22h ago

Which is apparently a bad thing judging by the down votes.

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u/Alcryon 1d ago

PC was a dying/niche gaming platform back then, and Valve revitalized it with Steam. Consumers also have way more trust in Valve, as they are a private company that prioritize customers first, not shareholders.

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u/somethingmoronic 1d ago edited 23h ago

PC is different to me because my PC Library moves from PC to PC for me. Even when a games taken off Steam, if I bought it, it's still on there for me (not sure if that's always true, but was in the rare times it's effected me). It provides extra features by providing easy mod distribution, and my family members can play games from my account as long as I'm not playing them (my Switch doesn't allow my family to play games I buy digitally even on the same console). Also, you can trade games you own on Steam, you can transfer them, I think there is a delay to do it again after you do, but I don't really do this often, but nice to have when I want to.

I also like to buy old games and indie games, stuff that has no physical release or wouldn't be in stock anywhere cause it's years old and on sale, this does happen to a lesser degree on consoles. Having AAA new games have no physical release is different then buying Silksong for 25 bucks or the first Devil may cry for super cheap on PC. But again, playing old games on a new PC means I just load them on current hardware, there is no limitation, sure some console games get rereleases... Where they try to charge again for the same game that now runs on a new system fairly often... Just look at the fact that Nintendo is charging to play your switch games on your switch 2... On PC, that would cost you nothing, just install the game on the new PC.

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u/Greenfire32 21h ago

My problem with the lack of physical isn't really the lack of physical, it's the lack of actual ownership.

If I buy a disc, I can sell or give that disc to someone else and it'll still work for them. Because I own that disc. I might not own the content on that disc, but I own the disc itself. That isn't the case with digital currently.

If we change it so that digital ownership is exactly the same as physical ownership, then I have no real issue with going digital-only.

The problem isn't that I don't have a disc. The problem is that I don't actually have any kind of ownership. And yet, digital sales are still being marketed as if I did.

6

u/MadeByTango 1d ago

Use this article for unified language. Its a good one seeped in legal grounding. We take this and make it the status quo expectation and we may get Sony to understand the issue here.

The actions to take and future legislation to watch is the critical part at the end, as well:

That starts with legal protections ensuring that the same rights that apply to physical media apply to digital media. Next up? Reform Section 1201 of the DMCA to clarify that it does not forbid fair uses.

At the state level, we need meaningful consumer protections. Some promising models include California’s AB 1921, which would clarify what customers are actually paying for on digital storefronts and ensure some protections for maintaining discontinued games. The gaming industry has done its best to kill the bill, including claiming that private community servers are illegal.

If you bought it, you should own it, and EFF will continue working to mitigate some of the worst harms of the DMCA 1201, defending modders, and fighting deceptive licensing that makes culture less free.

2

u/ytman 23h ago

If digital rights/consumer rights over digital goods evolves in any way not because of the US domestic policy, that would be a metaphorical coup of the way the US has enshittified global trade for the corporations, shareholders, and oligarchs of the world.

6

u/Old_Piccolo5581 23h ago

yeah eff calling this out is overdue, full price for a license they can yank anytime is straight up nonsense

5

u/2WheelSuperiority 1d ago

I'm sure some corporate white knight will come in here and explain how the EFF doesn't understand what Sony means to do though.

4

u/Jamie00003 1d ago

So why can’t we look at changing the laws to force these companies to retain your access, as long as the platform still exists?

Perhaps in the case that the company goes out of business, allow us to download a DRM free copy of the content on a one time basis

9

u/Busterlimes 1d ago

Where the fuck was EFF when Blizzard just robbed everyone who paid for OW and slapped them with OW2?

1

u/i_wear_green_pants 1d ago

Well it could be explained by saying that OW is live service and OW2 is just huge update. Nothing says people should have access to every single patch of live service games.

Same goes with CS:GO and CS2.

1

u/Busterlimes 15h ago

OW was 6v6 OW 2 is 5v5. Completely different play strategies are used. They didnt add 6v6 back in for YEARS. They stole a game I paid for, simple as that.

0

u/AshenRathian 16h ago

Yeah. It was essentially taking OW and making it into free to play via title update. It's hard to argue against in court, minus maybe losing your skins.

5

u/kevuru_games 1d ago

As a game development studio, we see both sides of this discussion.

Digital distribution has made games more accessible than ever, but players also expect that a purchase actually means ownership. Finding the right balance between protecting IP and respecting customers is becoming one of the biggest challenges for the industry.

Trust is hard to build and easy to lose.

0

u/Siukslinis_acc 1d ago

Not to mention that some countries has copyright that allows the owner of it to remove the object from everywhere. So legally the copyright holder would have the right to take away the game from people's accounts. They even could do that wirh physical media, but it is a lot harder to track down.

Not to mention that the game you no longer can sell is still taking up space in your servers. If you would delete the game from your servers - you would also remove the ability for people who purchased the game to download the game. And with a lot of games being there on the store and the AAA ones are now usually over 100 GB, the digital space question is valid. Digital space is not infinite. You still need storage drives and it can be a costly endeavour to expand.

3

u/EmpressClaraB 22h ago

If they're gonna get rid of discs, my "license" I buy from them needs to be permanent and transferable, at the very least

2

u/lolcatzuru 19h ago

the ownership thing will NEVER happen, its way to big of a liability for game publishers and devs.

2

u/RisingPhil 19h ago

Don't give up so soon. We have these groups and lawsuits behind us. That's already more than I expected. The backlash is also still continuing.

If we stick to our Guns, we could accomplish something. But with paper hands, we'd just be victims.

1

u/lolcatzuru 6h ago

i think we need to pick our hill. With physical, im very optimistic, sony step in a big pile with that, but, ownership implies liability as i said. for example lets say you own a game, like its yours, that means that they have some level of obligation with the good they sold you, if the game reaches any level of scrutiny, they may be on the hook to fix it, or refund you even if you finished it, or something like that because of the fact that, you own it, effectively like a warranty, thats why they dont do it now, yes part of it is to take you down a peg, but also so tehy have no obligation to do anything with it.

3

u/Gold-Mug 20h ago

The problem shouldn't be disc or no disc. Why the fuck do we not own anything anymore? My digital purchase should give me ownership of a copy. You don't borrow my money either. I hope everything gets pirated the shit out of.

What comes next? Controllers that have software licenses for 2 years only and then you have to purchase a new one? I feel like gamers of today wouldn't even care....

2

u/Pro_Saibot 18h ago

Hell, they're doing that with cars. Want to use the heated seats that are already part of your car? That'll be $29.99 a month

1

u/guaztronaut 23h ago

Another Reddit post says 75% of PS3 are playable via emulator. I repurposed a hard drive for this purpose. And this rule about not discussing piracy on this sub needs to go cause fuck off rn with that bullshit.

1

u/StabbingChildren 12h ago

Digital purchases basically function as extended rentals anyway. Once official support drops, those files become completely useless. Cartridges and optical discs actually survive for decades. Stock up on physical copies before they vanish.

-10

u/Slow_Communication16 1d ago

Wait till they find out the physical discs still don’t give you ownership of the game. All video game software is sold as a revocable license.

I’m sure most people here aren’t going to be happy I said that.

24

u/SamogitiaAble 1d ago

When you buy a book, you dont became author of it. But you still own it, can sell it o give to someone else. The same with disc. Nobody is claiming to own an IP when buying a game. WTF are you talking about.

-9

u/Slow_Communication16 1d ago

Wtf are you talking about. I’m just saying wether you buy a game physical or digital your only getting access to the game on a revocable licenses.

I said no more. I said no less. What’s with all you losers just putting words in my mouth

-3

u/Dan1elSan 1d ago

This is not true, almost 70% of PS5 games are playable to completion with just the data off the disc and no internet connection. Meaning they can’t revoke shit.

1

u/Gestum_Blindi 1d ago

Well, except 30% of ps5 games I suppose.

-3

u/Slow_Communication16 1d ago

Read the back of the case then genius. It is literally true. And not just ps5 literally every video game that has ever been released(at least going back to the nes era)

While unlikely, they could take you court.

5

u/Dan1elSan 1d ago

So they delist a game and take everybody who has it physical to court to forcibly remove them? That’s not just unlikely.

If it works without the internet they can’t revoke

1

u/Slow_Communication16 1d ago

They can. Do you think those words on the back of the case are just mumbo jumbo?

Keep being confidently wrong. I’ve given you the information. 

2

u/Dan1elSan 1d ago

You said all software is a revocable license, I have given you the facts that physical games are playable with the disc data and no internet.

I have lots of NES games, should Nintendo decide to revoke all NES software licenses what is the mechanism to revoke them?

8

u/simon7109 1d ago

While that is true, good luck revoking my physical game. There is no identifier on it, they can’t do shit unless they come to your house and take your disc awqy lol

15

u/santathe1 1d ago

Unless it’s a disc that requires an internet connection to install.

-4

u/Lambdafish1 1d ago

Why would that change anything? They can block an accounts access to the software, but that's different from revoking the software itself.

If you buy a physical game and then get blocked from using it, you can still sell it to a friend.

1

u/V4R14N7 1d ago

Kind of like what happened with Too Human, I believe? Court ordered the destruction of all disks out there, but it's still sitting on my shelf.

4

u/Xenozip3371Alpha 1d ago

Yeah, except with a physical disk I can sell it, trade it, whatever, and there's no chance of Sony just deleting it, like they just did with 500 movies people paid for.

1

u/dtaddis 1d ago

This is why DoesItPlay is so great. They tell you if a game disc will run without any internet connection.

So you can take your console offline (I've unplugged my PS5), and still play many disc-based games in perpetuity.

-2

u/Azukaos 1d ago

I suppose you think that some Sony exec will come to your house to delete your physical games themselves if you don't comply with their policy?

Sure, having a disc doesn't mean you are the sole owner. There are still rules that apply to them, like no copying, and there's copyright attached to it.

But there's also no one stopping you from trading or selling them. The data on the disc, unless you tamper with it, shouldn't be affected and can be played indefinitely. (This shouldn't apply to live service and always-online games, though.)

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u/Slow_Communication16 1d ago

I don’t understand how you read my post and thought I was making any sort of argument. 

I made a factual statement about software licensing. I don’t know how you drew enough information about me from that to know what I’m thinking. Can you tell me if my crush likes me 🥲

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u/zorrodood 21h ago

It would be hilarious if that stupid announcement led to legislation preventing digital purchases from being treated as licences of arbitrary duration.

-1

u/bighand1 17h ago

>The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF), one of the world's leading digital rights organizations

Not a single person here have heard of this group until today.

1

u/hitgo1 18h ago

Plot twist sony actually wanted to save physical, but had to be the bad guy to get more attention to it 🤣

-2

u/Efficient-Session644 1d ago

And what they will do?

0

u/Lord_Nigel 1d ago

Ek dink aan die verkeerde EFF

3

u/gellshayngel 23h ago

LMAO us South Africans would.

-2

u/games-and-chocolate 1d ago

Sony will feel this if they force this. Many will boycot Sony. 60% wont even be able to play digotal games because of internet problems, full price cost, etc. Their market will be skrinking, and the people who have lots of cash will not magically buy more games just to have them in their library. So Sony's revenue will drop.

2

u/AshenRathian 16h ago

That's what should happen in an open market with plenty of competition.

Unfortunately, consumer alternatives are sparse and almost inanely terrible, there is in fact the exact opposite of competition here. Consumers don't really have a viable alternative that doesn't already cost them more than they were willing to spend under Sony, and even then, sunk cost fallacy kicks in and will keep players around come hell or high water. Even if they buy less games, they still use the service, which is actually what Sony cares about most. Metrics. It's the entire reason Sony is putting PSN on their PC library.

This is what lack of proper competition does to an industry juggernaut, and we should be kicking Xbox in the head for failing to compete too. This whole situation is a cluster fuck.

-6

u/Typical_Intention996 1d ago

I hope ever country on earth files lawsuits over this. Multiple ones. Even if they don't make it anywhere. Make it so costly for Sony to legally fight them and have to endure all the bad headlines they will cause for years to come.

Man f Sony so hard over this. Even if they reverse it temporarily for the rest of the PS5's life. I'm moving to pc gaming come late next year/early 2028. I absolutely refuse to go all digital on a damn console.

10

u/PhrozenAU 1d ago

you do realise PC is essentially digital only aswell

-11

u/Siguardius 1d ago

Thanks, Steam. Thanks, Epic Game Store. Thanks, GOG. Thanks, Sony?

Do you guys, realise that 80% of all PS games are bought digitally, it increases if PC is included. I really want to know how many new (let's only PS5/XSX era) games everyone bought.

3

u/Siukslinis_acc 1d ago

I mean, gog gives you the means to make your own discs. They allow you to downliad an offline installer, which you can burn onto a disc or other digital media storage.

4

u/BrewKazma 1d ago

When only 25% of the games are available physically, of course it will look like 80% of all games bought are digital. You can't buy something that doesnt exist.

-6

u/NumerousBug9075 1d ago

People are really out here thinking Sony wont actuallt games away when theyve already shut the PSP store down in 2021 and the PSVITA and PS3 stores will be gone this years time.

1

u/CaptainPigtails 1d ago

You know you can still download the games you bought right?